The Book of Superman (Justice League)

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

With the simple switching of spaces and not the 3 spaces of movement, units like Blob, etc., that specifically tie down enemy figures won't be as effective. Fwiw, your current complaints would've been true for the original version, Sock.

Here's how I see the theme:

Huntress recklessly leaps in front of Black Canary and ruthlessly strikes at the attacking enemy. Wonder Woman jumps in front of Green Arrow and deflects the attack with her bracelets. Zatanna pushes Batman aside and takes the full blast from Etrigan, but her Magical Defense helps her only take one wound. Atom switches places with Aquaman so that Aquaman is now one space out of the range of the attacking foe, but Atom is too small for them to see. Etc.

So there are plenty of thematic uses that will be quite good and quite thematic and will make the JL better together.

There are also, surely, some unthematic uses that will be slightly to moderately more competitive - just like there are with JL Martian Manhunter's powers. Personally, unless they significantly swing the cost, I'm going to ignore those combinations and be happy that the JL is more playable together with this power and that this power helps their powers shine. That's the compromise we made to get this thing off the ground. It's inherent in Martian Manhunter's design and it'll be inherent here no matter which way we go.

Fwiw, your approach has the same issue. Deadly Strike and Deadly Shot are two of the best uses of that power. Blob does just fine with it. There are scores of D20 users who have nothing to do with the DCU even who always enjoy a boost.

Exactly - I still really like what we had earlier, and there's a fairly simple way to get rid of the free, non sacrificing movement (if that's even a problem - I don't have a problem with it really, there are plenty of ways it could be explained thematically, but I can see why you'd want it changing).

With a little help from our good friends, the Kozuke Samurai, I give you, Symbol of Hope:

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After moving Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, for the remainder of the round, if Superman or another figure you control within clear sight of Superman is targeted for an attack, you may choose Superman or any figure you control within clear sight of Superman other than the defending figure to move up to 3 spaces if it is able to move adjacent to the defending figure. If the chosen figure ends this move adjacent to the defending figure, switch the targeted figure with the chosen figure and the attacking figure must then target and attack the chosen figure, if possible. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

The wording's wonky, but it means they have to move adjacent to the defending figure, (which has precedent on the Kozuke), and doesn't add much wording (especially if we cut the unnecessary 'before attacking with' pleasantries').

[IAmBatman]

We could probably also cut the first clear sight restriction. The second figure is the only one he's inspiring, so the first restriction isn't really necessary.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

We could probably also cut the first clear sight restriction. The second figure is the only one he's inspiring, so the first restriction isn't really necessary.

Here you go:

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After moving Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, for the remainder of the round, if Superman or another figure you control is targeted for an attack, you may choose Superman or any figure you control within clear sight of Superman other than the defending figure to move up to 3 spaces if it is able to move adjacent to the defending figure. If the chosen figure ends this move adjacent to the defending figure, switch the targeted figure with the chosen figure and the attacking figure must then target and attack the chosen figure, if possible. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Nice and clean.

[IAmBatman]

I think that lets us trim even a tad bit more:

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After moving Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, for the remainder of the round, if Superman or another figure you control is targeted for an attack, you may choose Superman or any figure you control within clear sight of Superman other than the defending figure to move up to 3 spaces if it is able to move adjacent to the defending figure. If the chosen figure moves adjacent to the defending figure, switch the targeted figure with the chosen figure and the attacking figure must then target and attack the chosen figure, if possible. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

I'm updating the SP with this and updating the thread title. What do folks think? I'd especially love to hear from the Heroes at this point as I believe the CRB has looked and haven't expressed any major concerns, and this is a path I believe represents the theme I want out of this card (Supes inspiring teamwork).

[Viegon]

I like the direction in the SP, but it's too text heavy for my tastes. If you want a "JLAer taking the hit for another JLAer" theme, what about doing it like this?

When a figure you control within clear sight of Superman receives one or more wounds from an opponent's attack, you may remove a Justice League marker from this card to choose a figure you control adjacent to the attacked figure to receive those wounds instead.

You can then pair it with some sort of passive boost and I think you'd get a pretty useful and interesting power.

[IAmBatman]

So:

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After moving Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, for the remainder of the round, if Superman or another figure you control is targeted for an attack, you may choose Superman or any figure you control within clear sight of Superman other than the defending figure to move up to 3 spaces if it is able to move adjacent to the defending figure. If the chosen figure moves adjacent to the defending figure, switch the targeted figure with the chosen figure and the attacking figure must then target and attack the chosen figure, if possible. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Or

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After moving Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, for the remainder of the round, when a figure you control within clear sight of Superman receives one or more wounds from an opponent's attack, you may choose a figure you control adjacent to the attacked figure to receive those wounds instead.

Had to go full round to give yours a hope of being worthwhile on only 3 markers. Even so, I'm probably not burning any of my markers for that effect. It's just not worth it compared to the static bonus.

And getting to redirect wounds isn't something I really find tactically interesting or useful in thematic Justice League builds. They don't have many passive healers, those they have are pretty slow at it, and they don't really have many (any?) figures that get benefits from having wounds on their cards.

It hits the same theme as what's in the OP, which I like, but it doesn't allow the thematic Justice League figures to get extra use out of any of their awesome defensive powers. There's no more Wonder Woman leaping in front of a bullet and deflecting it with her bracelets, or Flash jumping into the fray, pulling his buddy away, and dodging an attack. Instead, Wonder Woman leaps in front of a bullet and takes it to the face and Flash jumps into the fray, pulls his buddy away, and gets pegged. Not sure I'd do that too often strategically, and we'd have to significantly depower the static boost for me to want to shed a marker for it.

Is four lines of text on an otherwise fairly straightforward card that much of a quibble?

[IAmBatman]

A slightly less effective (and less wordy) version of the SP might work:

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After moving Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, for the remainder of the round, if Superman or another figure you control is targeted for an attack, you may choose Superman or any figure you control within clear sight of Superman other than the defending figure to move up to 3 spaces if it is able to move adjacent to the defending figure. The attacking figure must then target and attack the chosen figure, if possible. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

A slightly less effective (and less wordy) version of the SP might work:

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After moving Superman, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, for the remainder of the round, if Superman or another figure you control is targeted for an attack, you may choose Superman or any figure you control within clear sight of Superman other than the defending figure to move up to 3 spaces if it is able to move adjacent to the defending figure. The attacking figure must then target and attack the chosen figure, if possible. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

That's better, and if the majority supports it I'm fine with going this direction.

I think what isn't working for me is the effect lasting for the round. It feels kind of forced in there to compensate for the low number of markers and adds a memory mechanic, which I'm not fond of. But it seems that as long as we stick with the three markers we're stuck with an effect like that, so I guess I'll live with it.

[Yodaking]

IDK I guess I'll have to see how it plays but the marker burn on OM1 for an effect that lasts the whole rounds seems a bit wonky to me. I get that with only 3 markers you want something significant, and you also need something pretty good in order to give up the static bonus which is pretty sweet on it's own, but I wish we could find a way to make the marker burn a one time use.

What if it only worked for the one defense roll, and the marker wasn't burned until an attack dice were rolled, but then the defender also received and auto shield added to their roll? They Superman could burn the markers without ever taking a turn. As it stands now Superman needs to have OM1 on his card for 3 different rounds or you need a different way to move him on OM1 of your turn. Not a terrible use of an OM as Superman is a powerhouse on offense, but it does advertise your moves to your opponent.

Another thought I had about the marker burn at the start of the round is that some armies will be able to basically negate it completely. You reveal OM1 on Superman, burn off a marker, your opponent is running a Zemo led MoE, Prof. X led mutants, or some OM rearrange figure and just decides to activate different figures for that round, attacking only units that don't have a strong def. ally within 3 spaces of them. A figure like Magneto can even move figures more than 3 spaces apart before others move in for the kill. At the end of the round you didn't use the Marker Burn power even once but the marker is now gone.

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After a figure you control within clear sight of Superman is targeted for an attack, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, you may choose Superman or any figure you control within clear sight of Superman to move up to 3 spaces, it must then move adjacent to the defending figure and switch places with that figure. The attacking figure must then target and attack the chosen figure, if possible and the defending figure adds one automatic shield to their defensive roll. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

IDK I guess I'll have to see how it plays but the marker burn on OM1 for an effect that lasts the whole rounds seems a bit wonky to me. I get that with only 3 markers you want something significant, and you also need something pretty good in order to give up the static bonus which is pretty sweet on it's own, but I wish we could find a way to make the marker burn a one time use.

That's definitely what's informing the choice for me more than anything. But it's not the first power we have where OM1 you do something and then have to remember it for the rest of the round.

For those who like Avengers/Justice League parallels, it's a lot like Cap going on Order Marker one and then inspiring his Avengers for the remainder of the round. The only difference is in the bonuses.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

What if it only worked for the one defense roll, and the marker wasn't burned until an attack dice were rolled, but then the defender also received and auto shield added to their roll? They Superman could burn the markers without ever taking a turn. As it stands now Superman needs to have OM1 on his card for 3 different rounds or you need a different way to move him on OM1 of your turn. Not a terrible use of an OM as Superman is a powerhouse on offense, but it does advertise your moves to your opponent.

Superman inspires heroism, but he's not typically subtle. Feels thematic to me. Add him to an army with JL Martian Manhunter and he gets a lot more tactical. Gives them another reason to be played together, which I like.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Another thought I had about the marker burn at the start of the round is that some armies will be able to basically negate it completely. You reveal OM1 on Superman, burn off a marker, your opponent is running a Zemo led MoE, Prof. X led mutants, or some OM rearrange figure and just decides to activate different figures for that round, attacking only units that don't have a strong def. ally within 3 spaces of them. A figure like Magneto can even move figures more than 3 spaces apart before others move in for the kill. At the end of the round you didn't use the Marker Burn power even once but the marker is now gone.

It'll take careful planning and strategy to use well against most armies and some armies, like the one with Magneto, will counter it effectively. I'm OK with this and at least trying it in playtesting. I think that with careful moving it'll be pretty useful against most armies, but almost any strategy has counters (and should).

Originally Posted by Yodaking

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After a figure you control within clear sight of Superman is targeted for an attack, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, you may choose Superman or any figure you control within clear sight of Superman to move up to 3 spaces, it must then move adjacent to the defending figure and switch places with that figure. The attacking figure must then target and attack the chosen figure, if possible and the defending figure adds one automatic shield to their defensive roll. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Could refine the verbiage a bit, but this basically just changes it so that it no longer lasts the whole round but instead you get one auto shield? If it's really what folks want, I'm willing to try it, but based on theoryscape only, I still worry about this part:

"I get that with only 3 markers you want something significant, and you also need something pretty good in order to give up the static bonus which is pretty sweet on it's own"

This is the closest to hitting the mark for me so far, though. Although I do kind of like the round long memory thing, just because of the thematic parallels between Captain America inspiring the Avengers and Superman inspiring the Justice League. And other than skipping the round thing, this doesn't really eliminate much complexity.

[IAmBatman]

SYMBOL OF HOPE
When Superman or any figure you control adjacent to Superman rolls defense against a normal attack, for each Justice League marker on this card you may count one blank rolled as an extra shield. After a figure you control is targeted for an attack, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card. If you do, choose Superman or any other figure you control within clear sight of Superman. The chosen figure may move up to 3 spaces if it is able to move adjacent to the targeted figure. If the chosen figure moves adjacent to the targeted figure, switch their figures. The attacking figure must target and attack the chosen figure, if possible, and the chosen figure adds one automatic shield to its defense. Figures moved with this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Not sure I quite have the wording all there, but if losing the entire round part gets folks on board, I can go with this change. As Sock expressed in an earlier concern with this direction, you'll likely burn markers fast against multiple attackers, but the switching at least helps that somewhat. Not completely sure yet whether or how often I'd burn a marker for it, but I'm willing to test it out at least.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I added the two extra words to get some of the flavor of Man of Steel in there without needing the entire power. The mechanic that it involves is still the "vetted" one.

Many people asked specifically about the power - I asked what the prevailing feelings were - and there wasn't majority support for putting a fourth power on the card. Since I don't want a four power card, I broke the tie in favor of not having it.

I don't feel constrained by a need to try to please everyone on every aspect of the card. The muddled visions that emerge from that type of approach result in poor designing. If a clear majority were beating the drum for Man of Steel here, I'd be open to it. But that's not what's occurring at this point. I'm obviously still listening and if folks want to chime in and let me know I'm wrong, please, please do.

We have two Superman designs with Man of Steel. We don't need to have it on every single design. I'm not OCD about these things personally. I think that John Stewart's Green Lantern having a different shield power and Batman (II) not having the same Evasive Strike power and several other examples of our being willing to go in different directions on different powers have largely worked out quite well.

When doing the third version of a character, I think it's really OK to take it in a very different direction and not feel overly constrained by previous versions.

Honestly, in terms of gameplay, I think I'd find Heat Vision Special Attack more interesting here than Man of Steel, which is easily rolled into his overall stats. Heat Vision also feels like a more important thematic piece to Superman than Man of Steel, which basically just says he's super durable, which, again, can easily be represented in his base stats.

I saw an opportunity to use two words to try to reach an olive branch to the vocal minority who want Man of Steel here to help him play somewhat similarly, but if that just reminds you all that you wish Man of Steel was here, I can delete those two words as well to help! And then we can go back to 8 Life or 8 Defense (or both).

You've obviously given this quite a bit of thought and that is all I was wondering about. I think your reasoning is sound.