The Case for a Valhalla Customs Master Set

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Instead of trying to convince C3V, you all should start your own group and make customs out of the Arena sets. There are a ton of great designers here and I think a new group designing fantasy customs would be well received.

One of the key components of this project has to be a compatibility with VC in my eyes. We want to make a new Master Set that can introduce people to the game, but it's hard to do that without the support of the people currently continuing it.

I don't want to start competing with C3V, SoV, or any of the existing community-led projects. If C3V were to announce two years from now that they were going to use one of these minis, then new users would no longer have an easy introduction to VC unless they outright ignored one of the versions.

Similarly, we would want to ensure that we don't introduce a synergy that causes problems for C3V down the line, leading to a broken interaction. SoV is less of an issue here because everything is done openly, but if we want to have consistency, we need to make sure that everyone is at least somewhat on the same page.

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

I mean, this was my suggestion for a reason...:

I agree with this sentiment. This project is a massive undertaking, and not one that I just want to push onto C3V. I (and I'm sure many others) are more than willing to help see this through in any capacity, and I think that this is unrealistic for C3V alone to accomplish within a reasonable timeframe without messing up their production schedule.

I know that you're working on a more formal proposal, so I'll leave it at that for now, but I think that this is a very valid direction to take the project.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Please people, do not expect more than we can deliver here.

Even if we announced we are using this box today - and that announcement is assuredly not coming - we would not be releasing it as a combined "master set" for years.

There is lots of helpful feedback for us here, but please understand that our design cycle is slow. It must be. I am very proud of our track record, but if we started rushing things along then mistakes would be made. And mistakes in a single unit or small number of units could compromise the quality of our entire body of work, and how welcome we are (and how welcome we should be) in your homes and at your tournaments.

We won't even start a design thread for a mini until we have some direction for the design. That's how careful we are about our personnel resources, and about selecting minis. It would take us a *long* time to get a project like this up and running, and when we were done we would have - to my mind - (and NB's objection notwithstanding) an excessive number of unpainted minis.

May I humbly suggest that you guys get something going here? Call it a new project. Farm out responsibilities somehow. If the C3V ends up using some or all of the minis, that's cool. But for those who feel like these minis are crying out to be used, then please use them! If your designs - the designs of this hypothetical group - are good enough, then local TDs might allow them. I know that I would allow them, if they presented as a good set.

Please don't expect us to commit to using these boxes right away, because we aren't built to make a commitment like that. And, even if we did, you would be holding on to them for a *long* time, which would (to my mind) partly defeat the purpose of responding to this thread's best points, which include the barrier of entry piece. Telling interested people that if they get these boxes then they'll have a Master Set in 2021 is not really helping new 'Scapers hop on board.

All that said, I'm not saying (1) we won't use these boxes, because we might use some of them, and (2) we aren't listening. There are things we *can* do to address some of these issues, and this conversation has pushed us in (I think) a very promising direction toward some new things for us. And, also, (3) please consider forming something up to use these boxes. You don't need the C3V. You don't need me. I think it would be a fun thing for the community to do, together. And nobody will stop you, and if the C3V uses the same minis for some other purpose, so much the better, because you'll already have them. If you like, I'll help organize a group, though I will not have the time to commit to participate in an active role after launch.

I don't think we have a problem with forming a new group or structure to do this, so long as we can earn C3V's respect with good designs and find acceptance. I phrased the proposal as a VC Master Set rather than a C3V one for this reason, because it makes plenty of sense for this to be a project that the C3V doesn't have to internally house and lead all on their own.

My main concern is still compatibility. The customs side of HeroScape is already a little more complex to get into than an official-only approach, so we would want to ensure that should we accomplish designs matching the excellent VC standards, they won't be overridden in a couple of years when C3V finds a use for one of the minis. We can do our best to maintain VC compatibility, but we can't do anything about future units and releasing new versions of our Master Set units each VC wave is hardly viable.

That said, I wouldn't ask for VC's seal of approval before results are shown, either. We want to ensure that great units are being put out as new additions to the VC canon, not to lock away these units under the hope of using them all. I think that so long as we can strike a balancing act here, both projects can build off of each other and really benefit the community.

I don't think that this is a project that C3V needs to do on their own, but I do think that it's one that they need to be open to incorporating under the VC umbrella in the future.