Ki-Mo-Shi & Toxic Skin, OFFICIAL ruling!!!! Pg.11 - Page 5

Augray · #49 December 29th, 2006, 10:24 AM

I am very skeptical this was run by Craig.

I would not be surprised if things get straightened out on DW9000, the Ninjas, and KMS after the new year.

netherspirit · #50 December 29th, 2006, 11:33 AM

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Originally Posted by dnutt99

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Originally Posted by LilNewbie

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Originally Posted by dnutt99

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Originally Posted by Cavalier

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Originally Posted by gamjuven

i guess keeping it as a phase is the only way it works. like after the attacking "phase" u do the special abilities, which means that kee mo shi's ability must happen even if she doesn't attack anyone, just like how the hounds must roll for their plague even if they didn't move anywhere (such as standing still while attacking someone). if u put an order marker on either of these units, then their special ability will happen to anyone that is adjacent to them. the only difference is that hounds are done before attacking, and kee mo shi is done after attacking

That is, indeed, exactly how I see it.

In our house, (not house-ruled, but agreed upon by what the card states), we've always played where if there is an "after moving" power, you MUST actually move in order to trigger this. Saylind for instance, ... she must move somewhere, anywhere if she wants to summon. It can be as simple as moving one space, ... but she moved! Especially if she is engaged. Move to another adjacent hex and roll to summon. "But what if she's engaged with multiple enemies?" Then you either take your chances with a leaving-engagement-strike so that you can summon, OR you stay put and attack without the option to summon! This adds to the strategic complexity of the game. Though there are two basic phases of a turn, you are not required to do either

So following that train of thought and using Saylind as the example, she has to move, summon and then attack or she can't summon at all....read her power:

SPEAR OF SUMMONING

After moving and before attacking, choose any figure you control on the battlefield, then roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 1-8, nothing happens. If you roll a 9-20, move the chosen figure to any space adjacent to Saylind. If the summoned figure is engaged, the figure does not receive any leaving engagement attacks.

(emphasis mine)

If I have to move her then I have to attack with her for the spear to work. Fortunately, that's not how that works. She doesn't have to move or attack to use her power.

Newb.

I would say YES, she does have to move. The "after moving before attacking" is a between-phase action. It's at the end of the move-phase BUT before the attack-phase. If you forget to attempt a summon and attack, you have forfeited your option to roll for summon. However if you move and then summon, ... after summoning you are now in the attack-phase and have the option to use or forfeit.

I was going to stay out of these arguments after what I said to Homba about one of the questions he sent in, but this is where I get confused, Dnutt. With "after moving and before attacking," you say that they have to move but they don't have to attack? If you are taking a literal reading of "after moving" portion of the "after moving and before attacking," trigger phrase, then you have to do it for the "before attacking" portion which implies that there must be an attack, just like you are reading "after attacking" on KMS.

Why is that this special ability would only triggers when the figure does something, but every other special ability in the game (unless I missed something) triggers or can be used at certain points in time during the turn?

Hex_Enduction_Hour · #51 December 29th, 2006, 11:55 AM

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Originally Posted by Satyr

I believe this is the first time this wording has been used, so I'm thinking it may have been on purpose. WotC is saying that it refers to an "action" not a "phase". I can roll with it either way as long as they don't open "after moving and before attacking" for discussion.

Yeah the ability wording makes for a strong reason for the ruling to stand.
But with Mind Shackle 19, we're going to have to move Kee-Mo-Shi and we must attack (Ack! The figure we just mind shackled!) to attempt to roll for Mind Shackle.
Are WOTC ready to green light these kind of rulings? That's where we're headed...

I'd like to know that this decision came from an actual HS designer.

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Originally Posted by heretic

The ruling makes perfect sense to me; KMS has the ability to control her bodily secretions. Excellent, I wish I had that ability.

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Originally Posted by Augray

I am very skeptical this was run by Craig.

I would not be surprised if things get straightened out on DW9000, the Ninjas, and KMS after the new year.

I've not even ventured out to learn these new rulings on DW9K and NotNW.

GaryLASQ · #52 December 29th, 2006, 12:14 PM

holy crap!! i just read through this thread. GUYS, YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS?

do not listen to the new "experts" at WOTC yet. they are just going to add more confusion to our current assumptions. "after/before moving" and "after/before attacking" only indicate timing around these two phases. it does not mean you are required to move or attack in order to use the SP.

they don't understand the game yet. (although i must say this latest misinterpretation from them is yet another argument that the SPs on the cards are not written clearly enough.

)

Hex_Enduction_Hour · #53 December 29th, 2006, 12:17 PM

It's a weak defense, but I think Kee-Mo-Shi's Mind Shackle 19 took up so much space on the card that they truncated the Toxic Skin wording.

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Originally Posted by GaryLASQ

holy crap!! i just read through this thread. GUYS, YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS?

do not listen to the new "experts" at WOTC yet. they are just going to add more confusion to our current assumptions. "after/before moving" and "after/before attacking" only indicate timing around these two phases. it does not mean you are required to move or attack in order to use the SP.

they don't understand the game yet. (although i must say this latest misinterpretation from them is yet another argument that the SPs on the cards are not written clearly enough.

)

So let me guess GaryLASQ - you weren't one of the 25 who vote it as official?

GaryLASQ · #54 December 29th, 2006, 12:43 PM

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Originally Posted by Hex_Enduction_Hour

So let me guess GaryLASQ - you weren't one of the 25 who vote it as official?

good guess.

Aldin · #55 December 29th, 2006, 01:24 PM

*chuckle*

Am I the only one following this thread who hasn't voted yet?

~Aldin, who still hasn't made up his mind though he's favoring the "always use" interpretation a bit

AgentX-127 · #56 December 29th, 2006, 01:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Aldin

*chuckle*

Am I the only one following this thread who hasn't voted yet?

~Aldin, who still hasn't made up his mind though he's favoring the "always use" interpretation a bit

Vote NO!
You know it's the right thing to do

dnutt99 · #57 December 29th, 2006, 02:29 PM

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Originally Posted by netherspirit

I was going to stay out of these arguments after what I said to Homba about one of the questions he sent in, but this is where I get confused, Dnutt. With "after moving and before attacking," you say that they have to move but they don't have to attack? If you are taking a literal reading of "after moving" portion of the "after moving and before attacking," trigger phrase, then you have to do it for the "before attacking" portion which implies that there must be an attack, just like you are reading "after attacking" on KMS.

Why is that this special ability would only triggers when the figure does something, but every other special ability in the game (unless I missed something) triggers or can be used at certain points in time during the turn?

I see what you're getting at Nether, and based on my arguments it is contradictory on several different levels, ... I agree. The only response I have for that is the inconsistency of the cards and the way they've been written. There are just too many holes. My arguements strongest points, and main reason I feel so strongly about the ruling is what I quoted Alastair and said in the previous post and, ...

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Originally Posted by dnutt99

This makes perfect sense and I completely agree!

Here's the thing, ... I would agree that the hounds are designed to tie up figs. and plague them to death, ... there are also 3 of them in a squad. If one has moved, in a sense they all have taken their "move".
Ki-Mo-Shi on the other hand has been given the option to minshackle first. Obviuosly if she succeeds she would not want to injure the friendly figure! (Neither would the hounds want to either which would actually ENCOURAGE them to move!)
My point is this. We have all seen that sometimes what the designers MEANT to say is not always what they DO say on the card. I beleive KMS was designed to have the option to mindshackle, and if unsuccessful try to take out her opponent.

Cavalier · #58 December 29th, 2006, 02:31 PM

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Originally Posted by dnutt99

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Originally Posted by Alastair MacDirk

I don't understand why folks feel it is imperative that this ability works the same as plague. If they wanted it to be the same they would have worded it the same. Or if they wanted it to go off every time regardless of whether you attack they could have written it "after taking a turn with Ki-Mo-Shi....." , but it says....AFTER ATTACKING. How does this affect other rulings????? I don't get it. Seems so simple that people are making a mountain out of this molehill? If toxic skin goes off every time then it would affect friendlies as well.... this would make it a pain in the a s s to field Ki-Mo-Shi....

That's my point exactly. Saytr and HEH, good to see you guys in here. Saytr, I think, is beginning to interpret the card as I do, (not to say that you're still not on the fence), but at least you see what I'm getting at.

If you're engaged with Johnny Shotgun, (only), and succeed a mindshackle THERE'S NO NEED TO ATTACK ANYONE! Whereas if she fails to mindshackle, then she WOULD attack thus activating her toxic skin!

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Originally Posted by dnutt99

Furthermore the Marrden Hounds are mindless dogs that roam. Their personality is WILD. Ki-Mo-Shi uses tools, (she has a staff), and can therefore think and has more control over her "bodily functions" which is supported by her TRICKY personality. It's not just go out and kill something, it's let's see what's the best way to kill something.

While I can see where you are coming from, I disagree with you.

I feel that if we lock this at you have to attack to go toxic, then we have to lock after moving/before attacking as well.

Let's consider Chompy:

His special says Before attacking. So, what if Chompy is only adjacent to one figure? Can he chomp that figure since he cannot attack afterwards? The card clearly states before attacking, just as the war witch's card says after attacking. I see no distinction between these phrases other than sequence. Ergo, if KMS has to attack to use Toxic Skin, then Chompy has to attack to use Chomp.

LilNewbie · #59 December 29th, 2006, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnutt99

Furthermore the Marrden Hounds are mindless dogs that roam. Their personality is WILD. Ki-Mo-Shi uses tools, (she has a staff), and can therefore think and has more control over her "bodily functions" which is supported by her TRICKY personality. It's not just go out and kill something, it's let's see what's the best way to kill something.

As a side note, Wild does not equal Mindless. If they were mindless then the player using them should have to follow some set rules about how to move them...Move to the nearest enemy unit, etc. Even in their bios on HS.COM it doesn't mention anything about being mindless. It's cool to add flavor to a unit for the meta-game but you can't use that as way to prove a point about game rules.

Newb.

Cavalier · #60 December 29th, 2006, 02:35 PM

[quote="LilNewbie"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnutt99

Furthermore the Marrden Hounds are mindless dogs that roam. Their personality is WILD. Ki-Mo-Shi uses tools, (she has a staff), and can therefore think and has more control over her "bodily functions" which is supported by her TRICKY personality. It's not just go out and kill something, it's let's see what's the best way to kill something.

If she has so much control over her secretions, why are adjacent friendlies getting hit?

View Poll Results: Will you use this "official" ruling?
Yes. It makes sense in gameplay, its what the card says, and its from an official source.	66	64.08%
No. I will use it like the Marrden Hounds that require a roll. The WOTC don't seem to have much creditability.	37	35.92%
Voters: 103. You may not vote on this poll