Is Heroscape more luck or skill?

[ReqMan]

I think some of you guys are confusing "skill" with basic knowledge of the game.

Of course someone who's played alot will most likely beat someone who's never played before. Of course someone who drafts the A-list figures will most likely beat those who draft "the suck".
That is not skill.

And when actual skill is involved, it is very easily undermined by 1 or 2 bad rolls at the wrong time.

We had one game (that was logged) that showed a great AVG for dice/shields rolled, but during the game, the great rolls all came when the attacker whiffed anyway. The important defensive rolls (when you really need the luck of the dice) all failed.

So while the average dice you roll in a game can almost even out, it still doesnt make the huge luck factor less prevalent.

[tchop]

Like others have said, adjusting your strategies based on the dice luck you're given takes a certain amount of skill. Every other possible facet of the game (army building, movement, map consideration, order markers, etc.) involves a certain level of skill. Basically, the concensus is, anything besides the dice involves skill (even diplomacy in some cases).

But,

Weighing risks (deciding your final perception of odds) is a huge part of the game and detrimental to any success. Usually, players adept at weighing risks enjoy their share of victories.

Examining a situation, especially the odds involved in that situation, to help you decide what tactics or actions you'll use involves skill, does it not? Deciding when to gamble or give up on units based on the odds of the likely or unlikely death of a unit is crucial to understanding the possible effect of your options.

So, having a good chunk of luck in the game actually adds to the skill involved or required to master it- possibly to an exponential amount.

With all that in mind, as crazy as it may sound, I will state that the game is 90 or more percent skill. In my humble opinion, of course.

I win just a little bit more than I lose, but it used to be a lot more lopsided than that- in my favor. The reasoning, I think, is because I realize it's only a game and am more likely to take huge risks and for some reason pick armies that have little synergy to shake things up a bit.

Anyway,

If this game was 50 or more percent luck, I don't think this many people would play it. Like previously stated, you might as well flip a coin, play monopoly or god forbid: war.

[SirGalahad]

I guess what it boils down to then is that the question in the original title is not specific enough.

"Is Heroscape more luck or skill?" for an individual game or for the game taken as a whole?

I agree with many who have spoken to the idea that people can "make their own luck" through quality army selection, appropriate use of order markers, using the vagaries of the map to your advantage, "reading" your opponent, etc.

Even with all of that, there is still only a 1 in 1024 theoretical probability that one can completely whiff with 10 attack dice, and a higher probability that you will not kill the opponent's figure even with a certain number of skulls.

Now the likelihood that you will whiff with those 10 attack dice, then do it again, and again a third time, is incredibly small (less than 1 in a billion--worse odds than the lottery). If that is what we are calling "luck," then, yes, luck plays a factor.

There is always probability in dice rolling that is not related to skill, but nowhere near 50%, definitely not over time, not even in a single game.

I guess the mathematician in me really enjoys the game because it's not ruled strictly by mathematics. There a psychology to it as well.

BTW, I voted 90/10 also.

[SirGalahad]

Originally Posted by tchop

Anyway,

If this game was 50 or more percent luck, I don't think this many people would play it.

Amen to that

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by tchop

Weighing risks (deciding your final perception of odds) is a huge part of the game and detrimental to any success. Usually, players adept at weighing risks enjoy their share of victories.

This is a big part of it. Skill is figuring out when the risk of the loss is outweighed by the potential gains if you do well. Yes, there is luck, but figuring out the odds is part of the skill.
And a second part of skill is having your back up plan ready if the dice don't roll your way.

And yes, ReqMan, I don't know the difference between "knowing the basics of the game" and skill. There isn't any. Skill might go beyond it but at a fundamental level that is what it is. A great chess player may have a thousand ploys remembered, but when it gets right down to it all she really needs is the fundamentals. The rest is just applications.

There is also an entire section of these forums dedicated to strategy. There are a lot of great posts there that have really helped me improve my game. If the game is 50% luck how can I be so much better now that I have read and applied those insights?

[Snotwalker 8000]

Luck: I think we can all agree that we were darn lucky to have found this awesome game... (or do games find us?.... )
Skill: The ability to recognize a good thing when you see it, ie: Heroscape!


Luck: Having a friend(s) to play heroscape with today.
Skill: The ability to make & keep friends awesome enough to play Heroscape with.


If you have the above combinations of luck & skill, everything else in this discussion is academic.



SW8K

[Dredd Stev]

Well put Snotwalker 8000 I could not agree with you more!

[Kroc]

Snotwalker 8000

[Grungebob]

It is my belief that Heroscape requires large amounts of Skluck

[Eberak]

Looks like we finally nailed it on the head with snotwalker 8000 and grungebob's description, what more can be said?

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Eberak

Looks like we finally nailed it on the head with snotwalker 8000 and grungebob's description, what more can be said?

That spider_poison is a sklucky duck?

[Tai-Pan]

In most of my experiences, skill has to do with the outcome of the game, while luck has to do with morale. There are some games where one player can't roll to save their life, but usually the dice are not continuously fickle.

Rare occurances of someone autokilling a powerful figure do happen, and that could be attributed to luck, but when Deadeye Dan has been rolling the d20 half the game, he should hit something sooner or later. I would not attribute that to just luck.

A couple of fouled up rolls can make a player irritated though, and that can affect the way they are playing. Similarly, a few excellent attack rolls can inspire a player, and that also affects the way they play.

I would concede that lucky rolls do happen (I've lost Deathwalkers way too many times) and they can be game changing, but I think that's just another fun part of HeroScape.

Overall, I'm not sure if I would go 90/10, but it's probably pretty high.