The Book of Two-Face (II)

[Yodaking]

I withdraw my vote until we know what we are voting on.

[Arkham]

I cancelled the vote and changed the title after Tornado's suggestion, so the vote is not currently in place.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Arkham

I can see we're going to have a clash of preferences, so I'd rather just stick with what the design had initially, so I'd prefer to just keep it at the start of the round if that's the case.

Perhaps throw in the movement in place of the OM management that was originally there, and put the OM management as an always active bonus.

Originally Posted by japes

Just thinking out loud but you could change things a bit instead of full turns have the good side hand out figure movement and the bad side hand out attacks. Then just give him a full time criminal contingency plan power.

As you can see from my comment earlier I have no issue with that direction either.

I do prefer the less flipping option of at the beginning of the round.

[Arkham]

Let's touch base on what this design is looking to accomplish.

Bottom Line: Two-Face needs to feel chaotic in terms of play, but dependable enough to the player using him, in order to warrant drafting him.

What to avoid: a design that leaves the player feeling like he can't place an Order Marker on Two-Face in fear of outright wasting a turn.

The 4 games I played with him with the initial mechanic in place, I really enjoyed those games and liked what he offered. My only issues were that the Good Side needed a little bit more reason to actually use him, and the set intervals of round to round was a little longer than I felt was ideal, but it wasn't bad either. Flipping is fun.

So, with that in mind, taking all suggestions/reasoning into account, I propose this design and we'll move forward with a slightly modified version of what was originally in place but with an added benefit of a figure's movement on the Good Side:

COIN FLIP DUALITY
At the start of the round, before placing Order Markers, flip the Two-Face coin. Place the face-up result on this card.

• If the Good Side is face-up on this card, after revealing an Order Marker on the card of a Crime Lord or Criminal you control, you may rearrange any unrevealed Order Markers on Army Cards you control and immediately move one other Crime Lord or Criminal you control.
• If the Scarred Side is face-up on this card, after revealing an Order Marker on this card and instead of taking a turn with Two-Face, you may take a turn with up to two Crime Lord or Criminals you control. Two-Face may be one of the figures.

This is enough to make the Good Side feel a bit more tactical, while the Scarred Side remains purely about destruction.

My 4 games that I played went 2-2 as it was, so this little bonus shouldn't stray too much from those results, but I'll put in another 2 games with the changes made if it goes into Initials. I'll let this sit here in hopes of getting some thoughts/opinions on this minor change, and then call for another vote in a few hours if all is well.

[Tornado]

I think you may be on the right track. Most interested in your test results.

[Arkham]

Here's those results if you want to see how it played thus far:

Originally Posted by Arkham

C3G INITIAL PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Two-Face II

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this character's powers should affect them.
Pass

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
Pass

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
Pass

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
Pass

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
Pass

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
Pass

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
Pass

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
Pass

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
Pass

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
Pass

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 1
Map: Custom
Units:
Two-Face II(165), Black Tarantula(300), Doc Oc(215), Parasite(240) (920)
vs.
Batman III(250), Green Arrow(OQ)(150), Black Canary(190), Angel(90) (920)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R2T3: 1 wound on Green Arrow, kills him.
R3T2: 1 wound on Zatanna.
R5T1: 3 wounds on Angel, kills him.

Coin Flip Duality:
R1: Good Side
R2: Scarred Side
R2T1: Doc Oc puts 3 wounds on Black Canary after 4 attacks, Black Tarantula kills Black Canary.
R2T2: Doc Oc puts 2 wounds on Green Arrow after 4 attacks,
R2T3: Black Tarantula puts 1 wound on Green Arrow, Two-Face kills Green Arrow.
R3: Scarred Side
R3T1: BT puts 1 wound on Batman, Parasite moves up.
R3T2: Parasite rolls an 18 and puts 1 wound from his card onto Zatanna's card, attacks her for 1 wound, Two-Face puts 1 wound on Zatanna.
R4: Good Side
R5: Scarred Side
R5T1: Parasite rolls an 18 and puts a wound on Angel, attacks Angel for 1 wound, Two-Face kills Angel.

Notes:
R1T3: Green Arrow rolls a 20, attacks Doc Oc, 2 wounds on Doc Oc.
R2T1: Green Arrow rolls a 20, attacks Two-Face from height, 2 wounds.
R2T2: Green Arrow kills Doc Oc.
R3T1: Zatanna puts 2 wounds on Parasite.
R3T3: BT puts 2 wounds on Batman.
R3T3: Zatanna heals 1 wound off Batman, puts 1 wound on Parasite.
R4T1: Parasite kills Zatanna with a roll of 17.
R4T3: Parasite rolls a 10 and puts 1 wound on Batman, attacks and kills Batman.


Two-Face with 2 wounds, Parasite and Black Tarantula with 0 wounds.

Both teams fought in the center and then to the side of the map. Two-Face hung back and let Black Tarantula and Doc Oc do the dirty work at first. Doc Oc locks down Black Canary and kills her, but Green Arrow gets his revenge and takes him down. Green Arrow also hits an alost perfect skill shot for 2 wounds on Two-Face. Black Tarantula swarms Green Arrow with Parasite and takes down Green Arrow, while Zatanna tries her best to stay in the fight. She is killed and Batman is swarmed as Angel tries to get him out of harms way. Batman is soon killed. Angel tries taking out Two-Face but fails and is killed for his trouble.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
Map: Custom
Units:
Two-Face II(165), Wrecking Crew (800) (965)
vs.
Star-Lord(250), Gamora(310), Bane(190), Invisible Woman(215) (965)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R3T3: puts 2 wounds on Gamora(botched defense).
R4T1: puts 2 wounds on Gamora(botched defense). (height)

Coin Flip Duality:
R1: Good Side
R2: Scarred Side
R21: Wrecker puts 1 wound on IW(botched defense), Piledriver moves and attacks Gamora but takes a wound from MMA.
R2T2: Wrecker and Piledriver failed to cause any wounds.
R3: Scarred Side
R3T1: Piledriver fails to wound Invisible Woman, Bulldozer moves up.
R3T2: Bulldozer and Two-Face move up.
R3T3: Bulldozer kills Invisible Woman, Two-Face puts 2 wounds on Gamora(botched defense).
R4: Good Side

Notes:
R2T2: Gamora puts 2 wounds on Wrecker.
R2T3: Gamora puts a wound on Wrecker.
R2T3: Piledriver puts 2 wounds on Invisible Woman. Wrecker eats 2 wounds from LEA to get out of a bad spot, attacks Gamora, is killed by her MMA.
R3T1: Gamora absolutely destroys Piledriver.
R3T2: Gamora puts 2 wounds on Bulldozer.
R4T1: Gamora puts 2 wounds on Two-Face.
R4T3: Gamora kills Two-Face.
R4T3: Bulldozer puts 1 wound on Bane, Thunderball kills Gamora.
R5T1: Bane puts 1 wound on Bulldozer.
R5T2: Bane kills Bulldozer.
R6T1: Thunderball puts 2 wounds on Bane.
R6T3: Bane puts 2 wounds on Thunderball.
R7T1: Thunderball kills Bane.
R7T3: Thunderball puts 2 wounds on Star-Lord.
R7T3: S-L puts 1 wound on Thunderball(botched defense).
R8T1: S-L puts 1 wound on Thunderball(botched defense).
R8T2: S-L puts 1 wound on Thunderball.
R9T1: S-L puts 1 wound on Thunderball, kills him.


Star-Lord with 2 wounds.

Two-Face stood back while the Wrecking Crew pushed forward. Star-Lord's team stayed together towards their base and moved as a unit to better defend. Wrecker and Piledriver struggled to break through said defense, and Wrecker got himself in a bad situation eating big attacks until he died. Piledriver tried taking out Invisible Woman but couldn't finish the job. Bulldozer comes in and finishes Invisible Woman, while Thunderball and Two-Face move forward. They bait Gamora out, she goes after Two-Face and succeeds in killing him, but is then killed herself. Bane steps up and takes out Bulldozer but is bested by Thunderball. Thunderball and Star-Lord duke it out, where Star-Lord manages to kill Thunderball 1 wound at a time.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 3
Map: Custom
Units:
Two-Face II(165), Black Tarantula(300), Sandman(210), Electro(135), Bulldozer(190) (1,000)
vs.
Fantastic Four (1,000)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R5T1: 1 wound on Thing.

Coin Flip Duality:
R1: Good Side
R2: Good Side
R3: Good Side
R4: Good Side
R5: Scarred Side
R5T1: Black Tarantula attacks Thing for 2 wounds, Two-Face puts 1 wound on Thing.
R5T2: Black Tarantula puts 2 wounds on Thing and kills him.

Notes:
R1T1: Mr. F. rolls a 3.
R1T2: Mr. F. rolls a 15, moves people.
R1T3: MR. F. rolls a 16, Mr. F. puts 1 wound on Black Tarantula.
R1T3: Bulldozer puts 1 wound on HT.
R2T1: Doc Oc engages Human Torch and Mr. F. to deny Fo4.
R2T1: Mr. F. rolls a 4, Mr. F. puts 3 wounds on Doc Oc.
R2T2: Black Tarantula kills HT.
R2T2: Mr. F. rolls a 5, Mr. F. kills Doc Oc.
R2T3: Mr. F. rolls a 3.
R3T1: Mr. F. rolls a 13, IW puts 1 wound on Bulldozer, Mr. F. puts 1 wound on Bulldozer(botched defense).
R3T2: Bulldozer puts 2 wounds on Mr. Fantastic.
R3T2: Mr. F. rolls a 6, Thing puts 2 wounds on Bulldozer.
R3T3: BT puts 1 wound on Mr. F.
R3T3: Mr. F. rolls a 1, engages BT.
R4T1: Bulldozer takes 1 wound from LEA, moves and attacks IW, puts 3 wounds on her.
R4T1: Mr. F. rolls an 11, Thing kills Bulldozer, Mr. F. attacks BT but it is blocked.
R4T2: Black Tarantula kills Mr. Fantastic.
R4T3: Black Tarantula kills Invisible Woman.
R5T2: Thing takes 1 wound from LEA, attacks Two-Face for 2 wounds.


Two-Face with 2 wounds, Black Tarantula and Electro with 0 wounds.

The Fantastic Four moved in unison as Black Tarantula, Doc Oc, and Bulldozer lead the charge for the Criminals. Doc Oc locks down Human Torch and is tangled up with Mr. Fantastic preventing both their movements. Human Torch is neutralized and eliminated with no Fo4. Mr. Fantastic isn't rolling well for his turns, so the Fantastic Four is a bit on the back foot. Doc Oc is eliminated. Black Tarantula and Bulldozer maneuver around to force Mr. Fantastic to only be able to lock down one of them opening up Invisible Woman for a hit. Bulldozer is locked down and eventually killed. Mr. Fantastic is killed. Invisible Woman is destroyed. The Criminals are doing well on their own with Two-Face strictly playing Order Marker management due to the Coin Flip coming up good for the first 4 rounds. Thing does everything he can to reach Two-Face, taking wounds in the process, and hits him for half his life when he gets to him. However the damage was already done and Thing is taken out.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 4 (rematch)
Map: Custom
Units:
Two-Face II(165), Black Tarantula(300), Sandman(210), Electro(135), Bulldozer(190) (1,000)
vs.
Fantastic Four (1,000)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R2T3: 1 wound on Mr. Fantastic.


Coin Flip Duality:
R1: Scarred Side
R1T1: Doc Oc and Bulldozer move.
R1T2: Doc Oc and Bulldozer move.
R1T3: Bulldozer puts 2 wounds on Invisible Woman, Doc Oc puts 2 wounds on Mr. Fantastic after some decent attacks.
R2: Scarred Side
R2T1: BT moves and attacks but it is blocked, Electro moves and attacks Mr. F. and IW, blocked.
R2T2: Black Tarantula attacks HT but it is blocked, heals 1 wound, then Two-Face moves and attacks HT but both attacks are blocked.
R2T3: Two-Face puts 1 wound on Mr. Fantastic.
R3: Good Side

Notes:
R1T1: Mr. F. rolls a 6, IW and Mr. F. move.
R1T2: Mr. F. rolls a 7, Mr. F. moves and engages Doc Oc to tangle up with each other, attacks him for 3 wounds(botched defense).
R1T3: Mr. F. rolls a 19, Human Torch puts 3 wounds on Bulldozer, Thing puts 2 wounds on Bulldozer, Invisible Woman kills Bulldozer(botched defense), Mr. Fantastic kills Doc Oc.
R2T1: Mr. F. rolls an 18, IW moves and attacks Electro, blocked. Human Torch moves and attacks Electro, blocked. Thing moves and attacks Electro, kills him(botched defense). Mr. F. moves and puts 1 wound on Black Tarantula.
R2T3: Mr. F. rolls a 15, Human Torch takes 1 wound from LEA, uses Fo4, puts 2 wounds on Black Tarantula, then uses Supernova on Black Tarantula and Two-Face, 1 wound on Two-Face and 1 wound on Black Tarantula. Thing kills Black Tarantula. Mr. Fantastic puts 2 wounds on Two-Face.
R3T1: Mr. F. rolls a 17, Mr. Fantastic kills Two-Face.


Mr. Fantastic with 4 wounds, Invisible Woman with 2 wounds, Human Torch with 1 wound, Thing with 0 wounds.

Both teams fight it out in the center, with the lockdown units tying each other down right out of the gate to prevent each other from ruining their plans. Fantastic Four definitely coming out hot after a couple of poor rolls, Doc Oc is quickly disposed of after he managed to get some wounds on Mr. Fantastic. Invisible Woman takes some damage from Bulldozer breaking through, but manages to survive. Bulldozer gets surrounded and Thing takes care of him. The Fantastic Four pushes towards the Criminal base, Black Tarantula and Electro intercepting them. Electro gets swarmed and destroyed after failing his Electric Skin rolls. Black Tarantula pushes but can't do anything of worth. Two-Face is panicking and tries to finish off Mr. Fantastic but fails, and is killed.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: .

[Yodaking]

I believe the bonus movement needs to be defined in terms of spaces moved (4 or 5), or it needs to be written to state they get to take a turn in which they can only move. I don't recall all the reasons behind it but I seem to recall the wording coming up before. I'm fine either way you want to go with it (set move number or move only turn).

[Arkham]

I think it's all around better to go with a turn in which the person can only move. This allows synergy/combos with the likes of Black Tarantula's healing, Wizard's +1 move, Sandman's Sandstorm, and Absorption Man's markers etc. to be used. However, we'll have to see in testing how that all plays out.

The only thing that may come in too good is Sandman's Sandstorm. However, that's only able to be done when it's on the Good Side, so it may balance it out. Other than that, the double turns can still be scary on the Scarred Side. Through testing it didn't prove to be too powerful, but we could always dial back to attacking with 2 figures instead, as proposed before, if his team is coming in too strong.

[Tornado]

You would be able to use Sandstorm no matter what side is flipped making Sandman a top notch choice for sure.

[Viegon]

Wow, lots to catch up on already.

First off, as I've said before, I'm not a fan of the coin mechanic but I can live with it as long as we also do a D20/marker version. Any chance we could make the D20/marker version the "official" card (since it fits with existing mechanics) and the coin one the alternate card? It doesn't much matter either way as people will play with whichever version they like better, but I worry a little about players seeing the coin card in the OP and being turned off by having to make/find a coin proxy or not liking the coin flip mechanic.

Secondly, I like the changes to his stats. His stats, synergies, and Double Attack all look good now.

As to Coin Flip Duality, while I'd be fine with the start of every round trigger, I actually like the version where it triggers at the start of the game and then throughout the game depending on wounds being dealt. However, I agree with ZJ that the current version in the SP would trigger way too often and slow down the game. I think scaling it back to triggering on just when your figures take wounds would be fun and wouldn't bog things down.

Also, I really worry the double-activation on the Scarred Side will just be too strong. Being able to camp Two-Face at the back of your base while he hands out double activations just seems really good, especially when you consider some of the figures he works with: the Intergang Agents who can choose Two-Face for their Boss, Mentallo who can chain that to take control of an enemy, comboing Hired Guns and Doc Ock for 12 attacks, etc.

And even if it is balance-able, it'll be hard to create an equally strong mechanic on the Good Side without his cost just getting too high. Personally, I'd go with either the previously suggested movement bonding on the Good Side and attack bonding on the Scarred Side, or maybe just a single activation that gives that Criminal/Crime Lord +1 attack.

My .

[TrollBrute]

I tried to skim the thread here so far and I think I just got confused. Lots going on with a bunch of changes. I will say I'm on board with the coin flip mechanic, though having an alternate D20 version makes sense as well.

[Arkham]

Ok, changes addressed:

1. Good side = Extra figure move (in which a movement based power could be used)
2. Scarred side = Extra figure attack
3. Flip at start of game then after an opponent's turn if a wound was caused. (this makes the most flipping in a round 3 times at max)
4. Rearranging of Order Markers is done after a flip to represent Two-Face changing plans on the fly. (max of 3 times per round, same as it was before only after the flip instead of after an OM reveal)
5. Order Markers can be revealed on any Crime Lord or Criminal for Scarred Side. (this is due to the lessening of Scarred Side's effectiveness, and to lessen the need to switch around Order Markers so often if flip goes awry)

Overall, this makes Two-Face's Scarred Side bonus a bit less powerful, but the all around reliability is better by allowing Order Markers to be placed more liberally on his Army. He'll still be making himself a vulnerable target, as his death means the extra movement/attack will no longer be possible, but the risk of all Order Markers being placed on him only to be ruined by a flip will be unnecessary to run the bonus.

Originally Posted by Arkham

COIN FLIP DUALITY
At the start of the game, before placing Order Markers, flip the Two-Face coin. Place the face-up result on this card. After revealing an Order Marker on a Crime Lord or Criminal card you control:

• If the Good Side is face-up on this card, you may immediately take a turn with one other Crime Lord or Criminal you control in which you may only move.
• If the Scarred Side is face-up on this card, you may immediately take a turn with a Crime Lord or Criminal you control in which you may only attack.

After an opponent player takes a turn, if a figure you control received one or more wounds, you must flip the Two-Face coin. Place the face-up result on this card and then immediately rearrange any unrevealed Order Markers on Crime Lord or Criminal Army Cards you control.

I'll be starting a vote for Initial here soon.