The C3G Cave - Hangout

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, but Superman isn't a human - he's alien scum. (insert evil Lex Luthor laugh here). Cap nails that whole "best of humanity" theme. Superman's a strange visitor helping out and trying to fit in, not quite a human and not quite a God (which is why you get all the Christ imagery, though Christ was and is fully both).
Oh, and for Johnny - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adW46gsMTXM

[Karat]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Hmmm.... I think the god-like omnipotence of Superman is comparable to Christ though, and Christ (whether you are a believer or not) is a cultural icon of how we view our heroes, or rather how we wish others viewed us: selfless and unparalleled. Pretty much all "American Superheroes" are selfless, and Superman is the extreme of that, sure, but all superheroes are an extremity of a quality or qualities that we admire.

That's a very interesting point. I don't know though, Christ doesn't exactly strike me so much as Superman, as a Hybrid between Superman and Captain America. He had America's discretion, and both of their resolves, with Superman's might, but that does put Superman in a new light for me. I was always kind of eh about him before, and now, I'm going to look at him differently the next time I see him in action.

I think my problem with a lot of the heroes is that I tend to emerse myself inside of them as I have an overactive imagination. I feel what they feel, or as I imagine it anyways, and I've just had a lot harder time doing that with a lot of DC heroes.

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Yeah, but Superman isn't a human - he's alien scum. (insert evil Lex Luthor laugh here). Cap nails that whole "best of humanity" theme. Superman's a strange visitor helping out and trying to fit in, not quite a human and not quite a God (which is why you get all the Christ imagery, though Christ was and is fully both).
Oh, and for Johnny - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adW46gsMTXM

Superman is both Human and Kryptonian though. Obviously Kryptonian by birth and power, but also Human, not because of what he is, but because of who he is with his down to Earth, apple pie upbringing on Kent Farm. His character is more Human than Human (insert Rob Zombie).

[IAmBatman]

I think DC's done a lot better job over the years of keeping Batman's tragic past a big part of his story (and then reupping things with a second tragedy in the death of Jason Todd). He really seems like a character driven by a painful past. Superman's past is arguably more painful (his entire planet and just about all of his species wiped out) but that pain doesn't seem to translate into his character as much - he's an eternal optimist it seems and almost too happy and good for a guy who's entire homeworld is gone. Sure, there are the moments of sadness about it here and there, but it doesn't seem to drive his character the way it does with Batman, which I think ultimately makes him a little less relatable at times (sure, he has a token moment of sadness here or there, but he seems to "get over it" a little too easily in the moment sometimes, which is hard to relate to.)
At least he's not all emo, though.

[marv_art]

But....WOULD WOLVERINES CLAWS PENETRATE SUPERMAN'S SKIN? or would adamantium "bend"?

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Superman is both Human and Kryptonian though. Obviously Kryptonian by birth and power, but also Human, not because of what he is, but because of who he is with his down to Earth, apple pie upbringing on Kent Farm. His character is more Human than Human (insert Rob Zombie).

He is human, but not in a relatable way the way Cap is. Cap started out weak and then used his human spirit to make something great out of himself (totally the "story of America" there). Superman was orphaned and alone (very Ellis Island so far) but taken in by super nice parents (a little less how the immigrant story works in America) and then floated by a bit on his natural abilities that weren't really earned and that no human can really relate to (though we can envy them).
In fact, I think one of Superman's most interesting aspects is his trying to be human without really feeling human since he kind of is and kind of isn't. Interesting in an adoptee narrative/unsettled identity sense.

[Griffin]

The age old question eh? Well in C3G, they penetrate, but in the comics, I am not sure. Have those two ever fought before?

[marv_art]

Don't think so. although I do know ALOT of people have fought about this question...haha

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

He is human, but not in a relatable way the way Cap is. Cap started out weak and then used his human spirit to make something great out of himself (totally the "story of America" there). Superman was orphaned and alone (very Ellis Island so far) but taken in by super nice parents (a little less how the immigrant story works in America) and then floated by a bit on his natural abilities that weren't really earned and that no human can really relate to (though we can envy them).
In fact, I think one of Superman's most interesting aspects is his trying to be human without really feeling human since he kind of is and kind of isn't. Interesting in an adoptee narrative/unsettled identity sense.

From the American Christian perspective, Superman simply represents how we view our savior and how we would like to be ourselves. And his Kansas family upbringing kinda shows that at least one point in time, us Americans viewed Christ as one who shared our values. Superman is kind of a "let's create GOD in our image" situation. So where Batman represents our Humanity to its fullest (light and dark), Superman is a being designed to show how we view our potential.

[davidlhsl]

Very interesting discussion, and I like Karat's point about Superman's universe being more idealistic versus a more pragmatic view represented in Batman, for example. That also makes me realize that I do have a bit of a split personality in my response to both worlds.

With Superman, I initially root against Superman due to his invincibility. Then he gets weakened and I say, "I take it all back! I'm sorry! Get up, Superman!" and feel guilty for rooting against him.

But I also loved The Dark Knight and was completely glued to the screen whenever Heath Ledger's Joker was on screen. In this case, I'm drawn towards the evil. When Batman enters and cleans up -- and not always in the most pure and innocent manner, mind you -- I guess there's a thrill.

Interesting contrast, and something for any future psychiatrist who has the unfortunate luck of having me for a patient to figure out.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Griffin

From the American Christian perspective, Superman simply represents how we view our savior and how we would like to be ourselves. And his Kansas family upbringing kinda shows that at least one point in time, us Americans viewed Christ as one who shared our values. Superman is kind of a "let's create GOD in our image" situation. So where Batman represents our Humanity to its fullest (light and dark), Superman is a being designed to show how we view our potential.

For sure, but our "potential" isn't really relatable, so much as a reminder of why we ourselves aren't good enough ... Then build in some super powers that we just can't emulate to make it feel really unfair, and it's hard not to sympathize with Lex Luthor at times.
I just love a good "underdog" story, which is why I dug the Captain America movie a lot. Superman is saddled with the "overdog" role, which just don't capture my imagination most of the time.

[johnny139]

One thing I like about Superman is that he's very static. Batman, for example... well, I love THIS picture. You can argue Batman from every angle. Is he a hero, a villain, or somewhere in-between? Does he fight for justice or for vengeance? Is he sane? Is he even good? I think it makes for more interesting STORIES, and more interesting LENSES, but I'm not really sure if it makes for a good character.

Superman can also be interpreted, but there are far more absolutes with him. Superman IS good. Superman IS just. Superman IS honorable. Superman IS heroic. If he stops being any of these things, he stops being Superman.

I think we all like to see ourselves reflected in Superman, regardless of our thoughts of opinions. I mean, when an ardent Christian like Griff here and an atheistic socialist like me can both look to the same character and see an icon of everything that's right in the world, you know there's a certain quality to him that's beyond definition.