The Book of Batwoman

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Why not just place the Glyph on the battlefield and remove it when it's no longer active? And put a "can't be picked up" clause in there. Same way we do Gas Glyphs.

More wording, and as Tornado points out, it affects figures when placed, not figures that move into the range. So leaving it on the field doesn't do much to help.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I'd try going with having it last until 'the end of the round or until you reveal a #ed OM' approach and see if any issues arise from that. It should result in the effects only lasting through your current turn and one of each opponents turns.

Yeah, not only does adding "until the end of the round or" in there avoid issues with it carrying over a round, it also encourages you to use it earlier in the round instead of trying for an Init switch for an extra turn of use.

[TrollBrute]

Okay, SP updated. I re-propose we move Batwoman to Initial Playtesting.

[Viegon]

Yea

[japes]

YEA

[Tornado]

Still not loving the possible bookkeeping nightmare here but I am willing to see it play out.
Yea

[Yodaking]

yea

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Okay, SP updated. I re-propose we move Batwoman to Initial Playtesting.

This passes on time. Probably won't get to the tests until after the holiday though. Friday/Saturday is a possibility, and next week if not.

[japes]

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

My next obligation for the Anniversary wave, a character I've wanted to do for a long time now, and an old Sidekick era write-up: Batwoman!

Few notes, first on the mini. I've got the one from the Batman set in the OP right now:

because it's a slightly cooler mini and I own it, so pics aren't an issue. Availability and price might be though. As an alternative there's the Crisis set one:
which is much cheaper and easier to get a hold of. Thoughts on which one is better?


As for the design itself. I have Utility Belt 2 here to spice up the design a little (had UB1 originally) and because Batwoman uses a ton of gadgets. Not quite Bruce level, but I think UB2 is fitting. I also considered designing a Utility Glyph for her, along the lines of a Flash Bang Grenade or Tear Gas for the military connection. Still brainstorming ideas this week, but open to any suggestions on that front.

Also considered Stealth Dodge instead of Bulletproof Suit. I like the latter because she's less stealthy than Bruce, and often takes shots rather than dodges them. A simple reuse of Stealth Dodge is hard to argue against though.

I have the second mini here so we should be good to go either way.

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by japes

I have the second mini here so we should be good to go either way.

Awesome! We'll just need to make a decision on this before Final Editing.

This weekend ended up unexpectedly busy, and the Scape stuff is kinda buried right now to make space for the holidays, but I should be able to get to the Initial now that we're in the new year.

[TrollBrute]

As I sat down to work on the Initial, I realized that Bulletproof Suit is extremely messy as currently worded. She currently negates even SAs like Cyclops' if her rolls fewer than 3 skulls. There are a number of different ways to fix this, including limiting it to normal attacks, but this is my preferred version:

BULLETPROOF SUIT
If a non-adjacent figure targets Batwoman for an attack and rolls 2 or fewer skulls, you may ignore that attack.

This gets weird of oddities like negating Cyclops' or Banshee's, but she can still block a Shotgun SA blast if she is targeted. It makes for a nice gameplay wrinkle and removes the messiness. That's the version I played with for these games:


C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Batwoman

I didn’t write them up, but before these games, I ran a few Hero tests. She went 3-3 against Merlyn, Tombstone, and Banshee, all 160 figures.

Army Test
Map: Swamp Lab
Units: Batwoman (160), Robin (Dick, 100), Oracle (110), Catgirl (60), Nite-Owl (130), Ragman (140) (700) VS Noh-Varr (260), Kree Soldier x8 (240), Kree Scout x5 (200) (700)
Unit Summary:
Damage w/normal: 3 Soldiers destroyed, 1 wound to Noh-Varr,
Utility Belt 2: Flashbang and Smoke Pellets chosen.
Bulletproof Suit: 2 attacks negated.
Surgical Strike: 1 additional wound to Noh-Varr.

Spoiler Alert!

This seemed like a really good matchup for the Vigilantes, as Batwoman can deal extra damage to Noh-Varr, and Ragman loves common figures. Ragman ended up with a ton of figures on his card, and he did a fair amount, but Batwoman only got one attack against Noh-Varr. The early strategy for the Vigilantes was to take out as many Soldiers as possible before racking up the wounds on Noh-Varr. They were a little too slow at it though, with a few of the Soldiers surviving hits they probably shouldn’t have. The Kree, meanwhile, focused on taking out the Sidekicks.

By about the end of the third round, most of the Soldiers and Sidekicks were dead. The Vigilantes still looked to be in decent shape, even after Robin fell, until Ragman used his souls to attack Noh-Varr five times, but only dealt him a single wound, putting him at 5 total. An Init win allowed Noh-Varr the next round to deal a wound to Batwoman via White Running. The last two Scouts took out Ragman on the same turn. That left Batwoman on her own, and she couldn’t deal with the Scouts Teleportation getting them close to her.

The Smoke Pellets blocked a 3-skull attack from a Scout. The Flash Bang was used to hit Noh-Varr and 2 Soldiers, changing the Kree strategy. Noh-Varr had to wait a turn to use White Running and the Soldiers moved instead of attacking. It also allowed Nite-Owl to take down a Soldier that turn. It was useful, but not too strong as it only affected a single turn from each team.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): R5T5: 4 Scout, 3 Soldiers, and Noh-Varr with 5/6 wounds survive.

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Batwoman (160), Robin (Dick, 100), Oracle (110), Catgirl (60), Nite-Owl (130), Rorschach (140) (700) VS Luke Cage (190), Iron Fist (260), Spider-Man (250) (700)
Unit Summary:
Damage w/normal: 3 wounds to Luke Cage, 2 to Iron Fist (one of each of these came from Secret Attack Plan).
Utility Belt 2: Flashbang and Bolas chosen.
Bulletproof Suit: 0 attacks negated.
Surgical Strike: 1 additional wound to Luke Cage, 1 to Iron Fist.

Spoiler Alert!

This went from a game of huge hits in the early going, to a long slog toward the end. The first strike of the game came from Spider-Man Web Slinging Robin and one-shotting him. The next round, the Vigilantes got a big boost by throwing everything at Luke Cage. They hit him with a Bola at the end of the second round, then won Init and dropped the Flash Bang next to him. Batwoman moved up, and used Secret Attack Plan and Catgirl’s Batarang Cannon to make it 4 attack (+1 skull) against 2 defense. She hit Cage for 3 wounds, followed by Nite-Owl putting the final two wounds on him and costing the Fighters 2 OMs.

The Vigilantes didn’t do much with the rest of the round though, dealing only a wound to Iron Fist that he would later heal. Batwoman would later hit Iron Fist for a few wounds before he and SPider-Man knocked her out. Iron Fist got a 6-skull roll to also take down Nite-Owl in the fourth round. Rorschach was able to finish off Iron Fist by sticking around for a while, then fell to Spidey.

This left Spider-Man unwounded against an unwounded Oracle and Catgirl. Catgirl stuck around forever thanks to some really poor attack rolls from Spider-Man. He eventually took her down, but she got through once and put three wounds on him with a lucky hit. Oracle and Spidey then went head-to-head for a couple rounds, filled with more bad rolls from Spidey, before she got through with a 4/4 skull roll against a whiffed Senses roll to win the game. Wild swings, and a shield or skull in the right spot could have swung things the other way easily.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): R8T1: Oracle with 2/4 wounds.

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Batwoman (160), Robin (Dick, 100), Oracle (110), Catgirl (60), Nite-Owl (130), Rorschach (140) (700) VS Luke Cage (190), Iron Fist (260), Spider-Man (250) (700)
Unit Summary:
Damage w/normal: 2 wounds to Iron Fist (1 from SAP), 1 to Luke Cage.
Utility Belt 2: Flashbang and Bolas chosen.
Bulletproof Suit: 0 attacks negated.
Surgical Strike: 1 additional wound to Iron Fist, to Cage.

Spoiler Alert!

Things went much more the way of the Fighters this time. Thanks to an early 3 wound hit from Iron Fist on Batwoman, the Vigilantes were forced to use the Flash Bang in a more supbar situation, hitting only Iron Fist. With the glyph and Secret Attack Plan, Batwoman dealt Iron Fist 3 wounds, but Robin couldn’t finish him off. The Vigilantes got a couple Bola markers on Cage’s card during those first couple rounds, but he took a wound immediately after one, and just passed a turn to remove the other. Fist took down Batwoman in the second round, so that was it for her.

After that, it was kind of a bloodbath. Rorschach moved up, but got one-hit by Iron Fist. Nite-Owl took hi place but got one-shotted by Luke Cage. Robin also went down the same way with a poorly timed whiff. Catgirl and Oracle stuck around a little longer, but neither could deal much damage.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): R5T1: Luke Cage with 4/5 wounds, Iron FIst with 1/5, Spider-Man unwounded.

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Batwoman (160), Robin (Dick, 100), Oracle (110), Catgirl (60), Nite-Owl (130), Rorschach (140) (700) VS Kingpin (220), The Hood (180), Black Tarantula (300) (700)
Unit Summary:
Damage w/normal: 3 wounds to Kingpin (1 from SAP), 1 to The Hood.
Utility Belt 2: Flashbang and Bolas chosen.
Bulletproof Suit: 0 attacks negated.
Surgical Strike: 2 additional wounds to Kingpin, 1 to The Hood.

Spoiler Alert!

Batwoman took a big hit early on, with Kingpin putting 3 wounds on her. She managed to stick around for a few more turns after that, largely thanks to Robin tying Black Tarantula down and her Bulletproof Suit protecting her from The Hood. First she used the Flash Bang to hit Kingpin in return for 3 wounds. She would later take him out with the aid of the Bolas. She also got one more attack against The Hood where she dealt two total wounds. Then Black Tarantula used his SA to take her down, though Robin dodged it.

Robin got a lucky hit on The Hood for a couple hits before Batwoman hit him, so Nite-Owl was able to finish him off. Black Tarantula quickly retaliated and took down Nite-Owl. Robin was next, though it was a couple rounds later. Rorschach got in a ton of attacks, many boosted by the final Bolas marker, but he only managed two wounds before going down. After that, Oracle didn’t have much chance.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): R6T6: unwounded Black Tarantula.

After these, I ran one game without Batwoman to test the glyph. I want to weaken its use outside of Batwoman builds though, so I changed it to -1 to for non-Disciplined Vigilantes. See next post for exact details.

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Batman(II, 250), Oracle (110), Batgirl (130), Robin(Damian, 80), Nite-Owl (130), Captain America (240), Bucky (60) (1000) VS Ms Marvel (350), Bizarro (330), Green Lantern (Guy, 320) (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Glyph summary:
Used in second round, affected Bizarro and Ms Marvel. Bizarro rolled 3 fewer defense against attacks, feel to third attack. Ms Marvel rolled 1 fewer die on defense and 1 fewer on attack.

Batman chose the Batarangs, Smoke Pellets, and Flash Bang Grenade.

Batman combined all three glyphs to get a big turn at the start of the second round. He used the Smoke Pellets to keep Robin alive after Green Lantern Overextended at the end of the first round. After an Init win, he threw the Flash Bang Grenade, climbed up to height and shot away at Bizarro, taking him down with a wound on the third attack. Robin then got a shot against Ms Marvel with her defense subtracted by one. He rolled 2 skulls against 2 shields and 2 skulls, for two wounds against her.

The big difference maker came shortly before that, when Robin rolled 3/3 skulls against Bizarro, and dealt him 5 wounds. Without that, Batman and Robin have to focus on Bizarro more and the Vigilantes probably struggle more. By taking him down so quickly, they put the Avengers Strike Team on the ropes. Ms Marvel and Green Lantern made a nice comeback though. They knocked Robin out before the end of the second round, and Batman before the end of the third.

After dealing with Batgirl and Nite-Owl, Ms Marvel was still only at 2 wounds, but Green Lantern was down to 2 wounds and only 2 Battery markers left. However, Ms Marvel got some big hits on Cap, taking him down in 2 attacks. Green Lantern used his last two markers just to stick around against Cap and Bucky’s SAs, but Ms Marvel took out Bucky right after GL went down. That left only Oracle, who struggles against mobile ranged units.

A pretty decent showing for the glyph, even if the Vigilantes lost. It’s still useful for Batman given how many attacks he can get in a single turn, but it’s not ridiculous.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): R5T5: Ms Marvel with 2/5 wounds.

___________________________________________________________

FINAL THOUGHTS ON THE UNIT: Batwoman feels close, but not quite there just yet. Her power are fine, and very thematic, though I may want to bump Bulletproof suit to “3 or fewer” if it comes in too weak. Otherwise, the powers feel right. Surgical Strike makes her play like Batwoman, and Utility Belt 2 is fun. For all my resistance to it, I really like how Bulletproof suit plays.

However, Batwoman feels slightly weak right now. She can do a ton of damage, especially when the Flash Bang can be optimized, but she goes down really quickly though. The 1-3 record here kind of backs that up too, I think. Without any defensive powers against melee attacks, and no range of her own, 4 Life 4 Defense doesn’t stay around for long most times. I’d like to bump her Defense to 5. WIth that, I think her points could probably come up to 170, or slightly higher if she tests higher, but I think it will make her more fun to play and bring her to a more thematically accurate power level.

[TrollBrute]

As mentioned above, I'd like to tweak the glyph to make it weaker when drafted by other Vigilantes, so that it is not a must-draft. This is what I played with for the final game of that sheet:

GLYPH OF UTILITY: FLASH BANG GRENADE
Before moving, you may destroy this glyph and choose a space within 4 spaces of this figure. All figures on or within 1 space of the chosen space are affected by this glyph. Until the end of the round, or until the next time you reveal an Order Marker, affected figures subtract 1 from their Move, Attack, and Defense numbers, or 2 if this figure is a Disciplined Vigilante.

This wouldn't change any of my results above either. Batwoman never really used the glyph from further than 3-4 spaces away, so the range boost was pretty minor.

[Yodaking]

5 defense seems like a good way to go since she does not have a melee defense power. Your other two changes are fine with me as well.

I would be against raising Bullet Proof Vest up to 3 or fewer, that would make her immune to lots of SAs that roll only 3 dice and would require guys with a normal attack of 3 to get boosted in some way to even have a chance to harm her at range. Bulletproof vests are more accurately bullet resistant, she would need an Iron Man type suit to become truly bullet proof and even then we allow people with hand guns damage an Iron Man suit in C3G.