The Book of Midnighter

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Really? Do you really think he is that much better than Batman? I find that surprising, since he is basically a rip-off of Batman, meant to stand in for the Wildstorm Justice League. I mean he does have real powers, whereas Batman is just a peak human at everything. I just don't see him being Wonder Woman or Martian Manhunter level, I guess.

I mentally have a tight like 270-300 window for him. He is enhanced to the point of just shy of super strength in a lot of ways, extremely resilient and can literally predict people's moves. I definitely wouldn't put him over 300 either. And yes, I do. I have read his stuff and seen him in action. When it comes to a straight up fight, Midnighter should always beat Batman. Period. If you wanna throw all that prep nonsense into things, then sure you could argue against it, but in a setting like scape, which is focused on the fighting, he's 100% over Batman.

Wonder Woman and Martian level I can see a question about. He's probably close combat ability-wise with his enhancements to them at more old school, but to be fair I'd normally say there should be more than a 50 point gap between Bats and Diana/J'Onn. I think the challenge here is looking at the versions. Batman I and Diana I is a 100 point gap. But Batman II/III are both 250. I'd say his abilities do surpass Bruce's flexibility seen in II. Definitely shouldn't come close to our powerhouse versions of Diana and J'Onn in their second incarnations.

This turned out longer than I thought, but I hope it clarified my thoughts on floor/ceiling. He should 100% go toe-to-toe perfectly fine with folks like Steel or Iron Man or Cable, all folks in the high 200 range.

EDIT: Somewhat ninja'd by johnny!

[Lazy Orang]

Sounds like the chap's about comparable with the likes of Wolverine, Deathstroke and Gorgon.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Our MM and WW were always on the low-side, though - the 2.0 versions of both were in the 400 range. I do think high-200s is mostly appropriate for him, though. I think Deathstroke is a good comparison point, and he's at 280.

Yea

I agree Deathstroke is a good comparison, but he is at 280. LV said he sees 280 as a floor. That comes across as 280-300 is appropriate to me, which I disagree with, especially if this is the DC version.

[LordVenoc]

I still wouldn't call him equivalent to Deathstroke, though that is a solid comparison point because of some similarity in capability. Midnighter is tougher and more vicious a fighter than Deathstroke. This version is designed to encompass both the Wildstorm and DC years, including modern "The Wildstorm". 270-300 is appropriate for trying to encompass the three eras of the characer, so I'm really unsure why that's a sticking point for ya as previous posts from you seem to indicate a more passing/secondhand familiarity. I mean if you have more familiarity than that/do know the Wildstorm years and have that as a point, I really wish this disagreement would have come up in the month he was sitting at 300.

Saying "he's basically a Batman rip-off" feels like you're creating a sticking point based on limited knowledge of the character and a decade of simple memes of the character. Basing decisions on "a Batman-rip-off" rather than actual capabilities and accomplishments feels similar to trying to make an Aquaman who "just talks to fish." And yes I know that's a bit of an exaggeration. I just really want to understand better where you're coming from.

[Ronin]

It sounds like we're all basically okay with 280, but we're fighting about it anyhow?

Might have a quick tweak on the Computed Response wording: the intent is that against an adjacent non-Insane figure, he gets to count blanks as shields and Counter Strike, right?

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Ronin

It sounds like we're all basically okay with 280, but we're fighting about it anyhow?

Might have a quick tweak on the Computed Response wording: the intent is that against an adjacent non-Insane figure, he gets to count blanks as shields and Counter Strike, right?

Correct. Should get both in that case.

I apologize for it coming off like a fight. I know Spidey has a wealth of comic knowledge and basically wanted to really know where he's coming from. If he knows Midnighter really well and is disagreeing, then that's an important discussion I want to have, but if its more passing knowledge not making it feel accurate, its not a sticking point. So really, not a sticking point either way, just a potentially important conversation.

Obviously a better way to convey that. Super high respect for ya Spidey, and I'm super sorry if all that came off as aggressive.

[MrNobody]

LV, are there any feats he’s performed that could give some context? Has he gone up against any recognizable/C3G-ified characters in battle? I know basing everything off of that isn’ the best, but it can help create context.

Personally I think 300 is high, but I do admit to having only passing knowledge of the character. 270-290 is usually the range for “ultimate badass who has powers but not crazy ones” characters in my mind. He’s always struck me as a Wolverine-level character.

Ultimately though, I think you should just go with what feels right for the character and let the points fall where they may. I think there’s sometimes a general worry that designers will “pump up” their favorite characters stat-wise, because who doesn’t want to show off how awesome their favorite is? But I don’t think anything you have so far is unreasonable.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

Correct. Should get both in that case.

I apologize for it coming off like a fight. I know Spidey has a wealth of comic knowledge and basically wanted to really know where he's coming from. If he knows Midnighter really well and is disagreeing, then that's an important discussion I want to have, but if its more passing knowledge not making it feel accurate, its not a sticking point.

Obviously a better way to convey that. Super high respect for ya Spidey, and I'm super sorry if all that came off as aggressive.

No worries. I wanted to interject because the room was starting to feel a little on-edge - don't think that was your intent or Spidey's, but it can be tricky to read tone in these kinds of arguments.

Totally fair to want to have the discussion, and thanks for the clarification. Gimme a sec on that wording.

[LordVenoc]

Unfortunately with him being from Wildstorm and only recently coming to mainline DCU, he's not fought that many DC folks. Your main ones are Multiplex and Prometheus. Prometheus I'd find comparable to Deathstroke, which puts us in the requisite range. Multiplex was a fight with several dozen of him, which was a very vicious fight, but also a super clean win. Could be comparable to Multiple Man, but not as good a comparison, even if you times him by a lot.

He gave Martian a bloody nose once but that wasn't really a fight to draw from, but for me I think I base the willingness to hit 300 more off Wildstorm era accomplishments. It sounds like any and all discrepancy is on 10 points, and honestly, I don't see him getting that high anyway if he's already looking more like 270-280. I have no intention of intentional goosing the stats, but do have a desire to maintain that range. Chances are that high range shouldn't even come up.

Again, if someone knows more specific things that make us feel like 300 is completely out of the question (not that I think he'll wind up there after initials) I'd love to chat about it. Otherwise, I'm totally fine with the Deathstroke/Wolverine comparisons. And would to see voting continue rather than get caught up on a conversation of point floor/ceiling (which I am 100% responsible for and should have brought up sooner to help as a reference point).

[Ronin]

Okay, mainly I just switched the order of the two clauses (since that's the real order of operations... count up your shields and then figure out how many excess you have) and tidied a couple things up, but something to think about in red....

When defending against any attack from a figure within clear sight of Midnighter that does not have the Insane personality, count all blanks rolled as additional shields. When defending against a normal attack from an adjacent figure, all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Is it intentional that he can counter strike SAs right now? Because I'd really recommend putting a normal attack restriction on the counter.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Okay, mainly I just switched the order of the two clauses (since that's the real order of operations... count up your shields and then figure out how many excess you have) and tidied a couple things up, but something to think about in red....

Is it intentional that he can counter strike SAs right now? Because I'd really recommend putting a normal attack restriction on the counter.

I mean, in theory with the targeting computer he would be able to counter hit from just about anything if he can reach a person. If we have a precedent where we don't let counters hit Specials, its not really an issue for me.

[Ronin]

It's something I think we have done a couple times, but best practice is avoiding it.

yea, anyhow.