Maklar the Silver Prince's Customs

[Ixe]

Oh, I missed that you could move your opponent's figure with that. That changes things a lot. If you can use it as a way to kill your opponent, this ability is significantly more powerful and has to be saddled with restrictions in order to function in a way that isn't oppressively powerful.

You are absolutely right that he would be able to switch the attacking figure into their own attack, which is a total theme break. The unengaged clause would help, but it doesn't solve the problem with range attacks.

I can get much more behind this power if it only works for your own units. Otherwise, I fear that it can just be too powerful to work with. You could try to force him to be unengaged for where he ends up and have it only work on adjacent normal attacks if you want it to work on your opponent's figures and see how that plays. I think it will still be too weird when you do things like move an opponents deathreaver into the attack but they can't scatter because it's technically attack from a figure they control, or what happens for units like the MacDirk warriors who explicitly cannot attack their human champion. It just causes quite a few problems.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by DanieLoche

As is, you gonna have a lot of weird situations I think.
(some are more thematic issues, others ruling problems)
Some examples :
- if you switch with a figure that usually can't be targeted in this situation (Lurk in Shadow-like powers for example)
- If the attacking figure had a bonus against Cormin, but not against the switched figure, (examples : extreme height advantage, Torin Battle Axe...)
- On the contrary, if the switched figure can have a bonus against Cormin,
- If the switched figure is smaller than Cormin... enough small to become unengaged with the attacking figure... how the attacker could continue his attack in such cases ?

More generally, it's not clear to know the exact figure that is the attacking one and the defensive one.

Good points here as well. It causes a lot of problems that I hadn't considered even on your own side. That's a shame, since it otherwise seems like a cool power idea.

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Thanks! I didn't see a lot of these problems.

A possible way I see to fix it would be to end the attack immediately if he switches with a figure. That would fix a lot of it but doesn't have the same theme.

I liked it how you could get your opponent to attack their own figures. A change so that you can only switch with squad figures would fix any weird stuff like attacking the Highland Hero.

It should work when both figures are only on normal land hexes, and I could make it clear that you can't switch with the figure attacking you.

Any other suggestions on how to fix the ability? Word changes, different circumstances, etc.

[DanieLoche]

To the avoid the "Hey! I'm finally attacking myself !" effect, just state that you have to choose a third figure.

Here is a simple rewording that could solve some problems, but I doubt that it will solve all of them.. :

DECEIT
If Cormin the Dark is attacked by a normal attack, you may roll the twenty-sided die. If you roll a 1, choose an opponent. That opponent now controls Cormin. Remove any order markers on this Army Card, then give the card to that opponent. If you roll a 2-10, roll defense dice normally. If you roll 11 or higher, choose a third small or medium figure within 4 spaces of Cormin the Dark. Switch Cormin the Dark and that figure. Then, the attacking figurine must attack the choosen figure, if possible. Figures moved by Deceit does not take leaving engagement attacks.

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Originally Posted by DanieLoche

To the avoid the "Hey! I'm finally attacking myself !" effect, just state that you have to choose a third figure.

Here is a simple rewording that could solve some problems, but I doubt that it will solve all of them.. :

Hey! I don't think there are actually any problems with that wording! That's great!

He'll get mowed down by Q9 or Nilfheim (or any special attacker for that matter), but with all the counters for those guys these days that's fine.

I'm thinking he's somewhere between 50 and 80 points. Does he sound alright as a 65 point hero?

EDIT: 65 points if he can only move due to Deceit once per turn. That way he's not too powerful and it makes sense. You know, you can't pull the same trick twice (unless you are very lucky).

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Ok, I've come up with a reworked (and hopefully better) version of Cormin the Dark

Cormin the Dark
Utgar

Elf
Unique Hero
Rogue
Tricky
Medium 4

4 Life
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 5
Defense 2 (or 3)
60-ish points

Deception 11(Decoy 11 might be a better name)
If Cormin the Dark is targeted by a normal attack, You may roll the twenty-sided die. If you roll a 10 or lower, _____________ (I need a good say to say nothing happens). If you roll an 11 or higher, choose a friendly small or medium figure within 4 spaces of Cormin the Dark. Switch Cormin the Dark and the chosen figure. The attacking figure must attack the chosen figure if possible. Figures moved by Deception 11 do not take leaving engagement attacks.

Stab in the Back
The usual. I decided putting two abilities into one was not needed.


So, what do you all think about him now? It's still the same figure, btw. Any comments on the name of Deception 11?

[Ixe]

Hmm. You do it before the attack is rolled so I'd say roll the attack and defense dice normally. There may be some slight problems if he can be denied defense, however. I guess for the point it interrupts, you can just say that you roll the attack dice normally and how it will be taken from their is implied. Otherwise seems good and I prefer that it works with friendly figures. I actually appreciate that it works for friendly and not just figures you control. I feel like multiplayer heroscape often gets neglected when designing different units. I could see having a lot of fun pairing him with samurai or parking him next to Torin and swapping in Death Walker 7000 (ouch!). I don't know why the opponent would even risk targeting him if that were the case, but you never know if you'll catch them unaware.

Splitting it into Stab in the Back is probably the best. I liked the idea of him having a chance of defecting when there was a gun to his head but this is simpler overall and a good reuse of an existing power.

You upgraded him stat-wise a bit. 5 Attack will definitely encourage them to attack him more and give him a bit of threat on his own. I actually prefer his life and defense being lower (3 and 2, respectively) to make that coin flip matter more. Still, that does open him up to special attacks quite a bit so maybe he could use in one of those, but I wouldn't say both.

Very cool unit. I think Decoy may be a better name since he is swapping other figures in, but numbering the power is a good idea in general since I could see something like this being applied to other units at a higher difficulty.

[DanieLoche]

"roll defense dice normally" is a good wording. (see Quorik Warwitch's Flutter)

Do you want Deception to allow the attacking figure to be switched with Cormin ? As is, it's the case. To avoid it, just add the word "third" : "choose a third friendly small or medium figure..." or if you want to be more precise : "choose a figure that is not the attacking one".

I don't know if there is other corner cases with this formulation, but you should look at the existing powers to check it out.
Then let's try it to see if the point value is correct.

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Ok, I've got the final wording for the Deceit ability (and a new name).

Façade 11
If Cormin the Dark is attacked by an opponent's figure's normal attack, you may roll the twenty-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, choose a friendly small or medium figure within 4 spaces of Cormin the Dark. Switch Cormin the Dark and the chosen figure. The attacking figure must attack the chosen figure if possible. Figures moved by Façade 11 do not take leaving engagement strikes.

According to the Nakita Agent's card (and many others, I'm sure), I didn't need the "If you roll lower than..." clause.

He will only have two defense, but I think he needs the one extra life just so he isn't killed off in one shot by the random low powered attack that will get through Façade.

Im gonna get a card made for him, but I haven't found any high quality photos. If anybody has a high quality photo of him, letting me borrow it would be greatly appreciated.

And DanieLoche, are you offering to play test him?

[DanieLoche]

Well it would be with pleasure, but I'm so much overworked since 6 mounths so it's too difficult for me tomake any game for now...

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Pricing Cormin the Dark is difficult. There isn't really a unit that has similar powers and stats. Comparing him to Isamu wouldn't work, and the Nakita Agents just aren't in the same ballpark as him. Finally I settled on comparing him to the Ninjas of the Northern Wind.

Firstly, they are a three man squad and he is a 4 life hero, essentially giving Cormin the ability to take mor hits. They have one less attack than him, but one more defense. They also get three attacks per order marker. With just their bare stats, I'd say the ninjas are better. Going from 2 to 3 defense is a big deal in my opinion, and the two extra attacks are better than just one higher powered attack (not always though).

They both have a similar ability, allowing them to run away from danger, though Cormin's triggers before the attack and the ninjas' triggers during the attack. Cormin is also slightly more likely to be successful. However, Cormin uses Façade at the risk of losing a unit, and being put into a more dangerous situation (as he does not have to end up unengaged), but I think Counterstrike and Evil Eye Defense partially make up for that. Cormin also has the chance of stabbing you in the back.

So where does this put him? The ninjas are better, which means Cormin costs less than 110 points. As a risky unit, Hawthorne is better, with much better stats. So with that, I think 80 points is a good place to start Cormin the Dark at.

Comments?

[Ixe]

80 pts sounds like a reasonable start given your reasoning. Pricing high variance units can be challenging in playtesting since they can sometimes perform extremely well and other times will be blown away almost immediately. I wouldn't be surprised if you could go under 80, even. 65 pts from before may have not been a terrible guess, but who knows.

Darrak Ambershard may not be a bad comparator. Granted he bonds with the axegrinders, but overall he has very similar stats and about comparable offense if we split the difference between his normal and Sneak Attack. He even has a d20 based wound avoidance, which is terrain dependent and overall less likely to trigger but doesn't involve a risk to your own units. It's still hard to say, but I'd guess that you'd be pretty safe trying Cormin at 65.