Marvelous Customs Project

[Balantai]

Most importantly, I'm going to need to have a few others that take ownership of this project as much as I do. All the othe projects I've started die out if stop posting for bit, but that can't happen with this project. I'm going to need others to help drive it home.

[Swamper]

I like Superheroes, and I've been looking at the C3G stuff trying to figure out a way in. But I came back today and found a whole new project started! I'm willing to help in whatever way I can.

[Balantai]

Originally Posted by Swamper

I like Superheroes, and I've been looking at the C3G stuff trying to figure out a way in. But I came back today and found a whole new project started! I'm willing to help in whatever way I can.

Welcome, Swamper.

[Swamper]

I just went through and read the whole thread again, and I like the idea of modeling this project after the BoV. IE, people submit the customs they think best follow the guidelines set up by the original Marvel Set, and then a panel of judges review the unit, both with Vallhallan and Marvel units to see how it works.

[Balantai]

Originally Posted by Swamper

I just went through and read the whole thread again, and I like the idea of modeling this project after the BoV. IE, people submit the customs they think best follow the guidelines set up by the original Marvel Set, and then a panel of judges review the unit, both with Vallhallan and Marvel units to see how it works.

I agree with everything except reviewing within the Vahallan units. Marvelscape and Vahallascape are not compatible since they were never playtested against each other. So we have to pick one or the other, it can't be both. I'd prefer to expand on Marvelscape.

[Swamper]

Originally Posted by Balantai

I agree with everything except reviewing within the Vahallan units. Marvelscape and Vahallascape are not compatible since they were never playtested against each other. So we have to pick one or the other, it can't be both. I'd prefer to expand on Marvelscape.

They were never playtested together, but people still use them alongside the traditional units. At least, my group does. I think that testing them with the Vahallan crew would ultimately attract more people.

Imagine someone goes to see the new Thor movie. They come out and think "Wow, I would really like to see that in Heroscape." So they go to the C3G, but it's too complicated for their tastes. Plus, they couldn't just print out his card and use him; they have to study all the rules and print out a bunch of other superhero cards, since C3G isn;t used with Classic Scape.

Now they could just come here, print out Thor's card, and toss him in one of their Classic games. I think that this would be the real way we could set this project apart from the C3G.

[Balantai]

Originally Posted by Swamper

They were never playtested together, but people still use them alongside the traditional units. At least, my group does. I think that testing them with the Vahallan crew would ultimately attract more people.

Imagine someone goes to see the new Thor movie. They come out and think "Wow, I would really like to see that in Heroscape." So they go to the C3G, but it's too complicated for their tastes. Plus, they couldn't just print out his card and use him; they have to study all the rules and print out a bunch of other superhero cards, since C3G isn;t used with Classic Scape.

Now they could just come here, print out Thor's card, and toss him in one of their Classic games. I think that this would be the real way we could set this project apart from the C3G.

That is a very valid point, Swamper. And if we approved a Thor card while comparing it to Marvelscape, they'd still be able to do that.

All kidding aside, what happens if a card is played against Marvelscape and it warrants a cost of 200 points, but when playing against Squadscape...er I mean Vahallascape it warrants a cost of 150. What do you do then? Unique Heroes just don't earn their points worth in most of the time when mixing.

[1Mmirg]

This has to be one of the trickiest parts of Marvel and this idea.

On the one hand, the original Marvel units were just not tested against general Scape. They use a similar point cost and cards, etc., but they weren't tested directly or exhaustively.

On the other hand, we do have mixed Marvel events at GenCon and at local events and (perhaps, in a way, most important) at people's houses every day. And, for the most part, play is fun and things work okay.

I know I've played dozens of mixed Marvel games and aside from a real nice boost to Braxas and Squads, the game works--of course, we play with small start zones and high point totals, to help minimize true Squadscape.

Anyhow, I think that the idea of specifically testing units with general Scape figures would be problematic. (Which I think is Balantai's point.) Nonetheless, I think most people would like to feel that in a 12 start space 1000+ point game that the unit will at least have a place and feel more or less balanced.

However, and now I've said too much, my opinion is that if the units are tested carefully in comparison to the Marvel figures that they will also, like the Marvel figures, do okay in a mixed Marvel setting. So, in a way, perhaps both are true to some degree. But I agree with Balantai that the primary tests should be in relation to other Supers--that the Marvel units are the starting place and the most important place to make the balance happen.

[Matt Helm]

Wow, what a great idea for a group project Balantai. It's great to see so much interest already. As you know, this is the type of Marvel-Custom-Scape that is right up my alley. I wish I had the time or the dedication to really get right up there with you but as always, I don't want to commit when I never know what real life commitments I have nagging at me all the time.

I do love your reasoning for this as your son is now 6. Mine is 8 so you can see what I was going through 2 years ago when we signed on for C3G. I like what those guys have done with their game for the masses of teenagers and young adults that utilize their "products" but when your most common opponent just wants to memorize the abilities on his card and not read and refer to them, you just can't play with the imaginative mechanics developed at C3G.

So now comes this project and I'm curious to see what you guys can do with it. Trust me, it's not easy. The toughest part is that the designers that are most passionate about it, are also just as passionate about their favorite comic book characters and theme. Once you get to "themey", you tend to lean toward role-playing aspects and more complicated powers to represent each figure.

--- Hold on, post will continue in a minute....

[elitebeatk]

I would definently enjoy something similar to the marvel set and C3G's World's Finest: an equal amount of villains and heroes, all around equal in point value when played in their team.

[Matt Helm]

... post continuing.

Funny how elitebeak mentions C3G's World's Finest. If you look at the design on most of those cards, you will see that much of the inspiration came from the original Marvel set. With the exception of the Flying Symbol and a direct synergy between Green Arrow and Black Canary, everything else is pretty straight forward classic MarvelScape.

As the lead designers became more comfortable with their process, they then grew into a more complex, and heroscapers-fan oriented, system of powers that allowed their creative side to really shine. Event heroes, heavy marker issue, glyph-carrying cards, are all evidence of scape-brilliance that evolved from the standard Marvel set. It has just come to the point that their system no longer needs the Marvel set and so they have rightfully (for the sake of the quality of their project) started to replace the original Marvel set cards... and even their own World's Finest (I've seen discussion on a new Superman and a new Batman card).

So enough talking about C3G (I only do so to accentuate how much potential this project has to fill another niche) and let's get back on point. Before anyone truly signs on to stand side by side with Balantai, I recommend that they read the "SUPER Custom Blog" listed in my signature. It should really prepare you for this or at least give you something to think about when you say that Superman should have Super Strength, X-Ray eyes, Heat Vision, Arctic Breath, a weakness Kryptonite, no real defense against magic, a cub scout heart,.... etc.

Study the Marvel cards and if you notice nothing else, notice that Iron Man has Double Attack and Flying only. Most people say it is an injustice to such a powered superhero. I say he plays perfect and reminds me of Iron Man simply by looking at his piece as I move him over elevations and then fire at an enemy from range.

So if everyone understands...
- figure photo art only
- no Flying Symbol (only the Superstrength signal applies)
- no generals or team logos on the cards
... then you should be good to start opening this product.

My suggestions:
- I completely had the same thought when I read this idea from my i-pod that a good start to generate interest would be to work with the official WAVE 1 - REINFORCEMENTS ARRIVE. after that you can expand your waves.
- I also think that the SOV sets a very high standard in its methods and scrutiny. After all this time, one approved figure brings that much legitimacy to that one card. So the suggestion is... work at a controlled pace and don't set pressure on your judges to build an inventory.
- Consider cards that are already done and encourage designers to come up with their own. The more ideas the merrier but make sure everyone knows that there is no shame in being selected only to be tossed aside.
- Playtest primarily with Marvel but don't rule out a few rounds with Valhalla. I don't care what every official person says, I will never believe that when designing the Marvel set the creators didn't take them for a whirl once in a while with some of the higher costed heroes in Valhalla.
- You can be creative with newer mechanics but try and always ask yourself, can a card that plays like this be swapped with one of the cards in the original Marvel Set without anyone noticing?
- For those designing fresh, what I do is I compare my cards to Valhalla cards in order to narrow in the range of the point cost. I then may playtest them a bit with official Marvel only to then hold them side by side and compare in theoryscape again but this time to other cards of my own creation to ensure that I have been consistent.
- Also, when designing, I sometimes throw everything I consider iconic about the character into a set of powers first. I then start seeing what I can build into the base stats and what just won't translate well to heroscape game rules as my first trimming. From there I simplify, simplify, simplify until the card is almost boring. Hopefully along the way, I come up with just the flavor I'm looking for to distinguish this generic ranged flier from every other ranged flier. If I don't... it gets shelved for a while... sometimes a long while.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing this progress and let me know what a man with very little time can do to help. Good luck.

[badgermaniac]

A coupe quick comments about some of the things Matt brought up.

The figure vs. comic art debate has always been most bizarre to me. I understand totally what Matt and others desire in terms of mechanical simplicity, fitting with classic Heroscape, and all that. Most customs do stray from the originals...sometimes for the better, and sometimes for the worse. However, if you are a "purist" I do understand that desire to NOT stray from accepted HS mechanics. However, the art on the card has nothing to do with how it plays and it has always been a source of curiosity that folks like Matt cling to it (that is not a judgment, just an observation) as being vital to the design.

Most of my cards probably don't fit with this kind of project, but what Matt's comments do make me think of is all the times that I have basically stolen an official power and then tweaked it to fit a hero custom. Initially, I sort of felt guilty doing that...as if it made the card dull, but even though my cards are usually more complex than the official cards, I have come to appreciate many of the simpler powers that were indeed just bastardized from some poor Jandar or Utgar card.

I also think that if you look at many of the later waves of official HS, you will see many that do not fit with the earlier card designs in terms of complexity. There are a LOT of those D&D cards that tend to be pretty wonky and text intensive. My point being that I don't think it is JUST super-customizers that fall prey to developing more complex mechanics, but the official designers went down that path as well.