Order Marker Observation...a solution.

[SuperflyTNT]

Guys and Gals,

I have a problem with Heroscape that irritates me to no end. Many of the people I play with have a tendency to slow-play the OM placement phase of the game in order to glance at my markers. I have a solution.

During the FIRST round, place order markers normally and don't look at the other person's; ideally this could be done simultaneously.

On the SECOND round, the person who won initiative the first round places ONE order marker, 1-X, and then the players alternate order marker placement until all order markers have been placed.

Every additional round the players alternate who places the first order marker, thus ensuring that people are not waiting until you place yours to 'cheat' and place theirs in response to your markers.

What do you all think about this? Should this be the standard?

[fomox]

Hmmm.

Ideally, people just don't look. Even at tournaments, people don't look. (Okay, I've had a couple of teenagers try to look.)

If they do, I just block my cards with my left hand/arm, make a joke about how my OM placement is super-secret, and only reveal when they are finished. Usually after that they stop looking.

If these are people you regularly play with, I'd say just tell them that they aren't supposed to look. If 2 or more players wait until seeing the other OMs to place, the round can never start, so I'd assume they'd see the light eventually.

[jdtenor]

Nooo! it'll make the game longer. This actually happened to me at gencon last year with a couple of people. I removed my markers and ask every time if they were ready for simultaneous order marker setup.

[Simpsons Scaper]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

Guys and Gals,

I have a problem with Heroscape that irritates me to no end. Many of the people I play with have a tendency to slow-play the OM placement phase of the game in order to glance at my markers. I have a solution.

During the FIRST round, place order markers normally and don't look at the other person's; ideally this could be done simultaneously.

On the SECOND round, the person who won initiative the first round places ONE order marker, 1-X, and then the players alternate order marker placement until all order markers have been placed.

Every additional round the players alternate who places the first order marker, thus ensuring that people are not waiting until you place yours to 'cheat' and place theirs in response to your markers.

What do you all think about this? Should this be the standard?

Great idea! +Rep

[Killometer]

If you're playing casually with friends just tell them to knock it off.

If you're playing competitively (in a tourney, with friends or whatever) an easier and less time-consuming solution would be to simply hide your cards and OM's until all parties have completed placement.

If you alternate OM placement it seems to me to ENCOURAGE tactical examination of your opponents choices, if anything.

[ElvenEnvy]

I've been guilty of looking plenty of times, but its always a psych out for my opponent. When your playing a free for all seeing where one persons face-down OMs are going isn't going make you want to change your OMs at all.

If your three or more rounds into a game you should have a good guess how your opponent would place OMs just from what you'd so in their position, so why look?

I prefer both doing it unknown to what their opponent is doing rather than alternating. Its by far the best time saver.

[Einar's puppy]

hmmm.com's see.

I like to use every advantage I get. I don't stinger denial, but I do watch the other person place order markers. The armies I favor always have a distinct order marker pattern (first two rounds of a game with a mixed knights/4th Mass army, for example, is all on the knights.) so I can place order markers really fast. I then watch the other person place markers so I can get a feel for what move is coming next. Against a good player, they will mix up the order of their placement. Against most players, even a lot of good ones, the order markers go down 1-2-3-X.

I am going to use this knowledge to my advantage if I can. I don't try to actually see the other side of the marker, I just want to know which order they were placed in. I don't see it as an offensive thing that is bad sportsmanship. I see it as a good move.

The thing is though, once I place my markers I almost NEVER have a need to switch my markers around. I don't drag it out, and I don't adjust my markers according to what they placed. I don't need to. I have the entire game already planned out in my head (before a tournament I normally play about 25-50 games against my self with the army I'll be using) so my strategy is the same. I adapt in game, not before game.

There have been games I would have LOST had I not known when X unit was going to move. Though, I love playing against other people who place markers quickly. It gives me a challenge.

Finally, for safety purposes I always let the other guy re-roll a die that fell on the floor, if they placed the markers on Grimnak and not orcs, I let them switch, and if someone can't get onto a space because of my figure, I move it. I want to make sure that if I ever misread dice, count an extra space, or add an extra die, I will have some good kharma going the other way. I guess I will take this into account too.

I had no idea this would be a "bad" thing.

[EternalThanos86]

Originally Posted by jdtenor

Nooo! it'll make the game longer. This actually happened to me at gencon last year with a couple of people. I removed my markers and ask every time if they were ready for simultaneous order marker setup.

I honestly think this is the best way to take care of that situation, plus you aren't being a jerk (well...you could be) and the other player doesn't get the unfair advantage.

I am with EP. I like to place mine fast and watch my opponent, but once I have mine placed, I never change them unless I notice an honest mistake I made. I don't think this is cheating, but perhaps others may think differently.

Either way, I would support SuperflyTNT if his method went to a vote. I think it would be a great idea, although it would slow down the game. Overall, I think Scapers are a fairly honest bunch so this hasn't been too much of a problem and when it is, I use the jdtenor approach.

~ET86

[Sarpedon]

Greetings, everyone.

There should be no debate here. The Master Rules clearly explain how to deal with (competitive) order marker placement. If you are lucky and the other player must place first, your ARE ALLOWED to see where he places his order markers. If you must place yours first, HE gets to see where you've placed yours. It's part of the tactics of the game. There's nothing wrong with it unless you are NOT playing by the (competitive) Master Rules.

This question has been revisited and revisited. If you don't LIKE the rule, then don't play in tournaments or competitively. At home, invite only those who don't peek, or set up screens so no one can see. I sure hope the units of Wave 9 (probably the last one so enjoy it like there's no tomorrow) are revealed soon so we have one last real hurrah.

[CheddarLimbo]

I'm in the This is a Non-Issue Camp on this one. I watch people place their markers, and I expect people to watch me place mine.

I've never encountered a situation in which two players went back and forth adjusting and readjusting their markers for an even slightly significant amount of time. It's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

I also almost never place them down in numerical order, for whatever reason. It I prefer to plan out the markers in my head, then place them a random order.

[jdtenor]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

Greetings, everyone.

There should be no debate here. The Master Rules clearly explain how to deal with (competitive) order marker placement. If you are lucky and the other player must place first, your ARE ALLOWED to see where he places his order markers. If you must place yours first, HE gets to see where you've placed yours. It's part of the tactics of the game. There's nothing wrong with it unless you are NOT playing by the (competitive) Master Rules.

This question has been revisited and revisited. If you don't LIKE the rule, then don't play in tournaments or competitively. At home, invite only those who don't peek, or set up screens so no one can see. I sure hope the units of Wave 9 (probably the last one so enjoy it like there's no tomorrow) are revealed soon so we have one last real hurrah.

I'm not sure if you read the 3rd edition rules, it states under place your order markers
"players place there markers at the same time"

Or maybe you already knew this and I possibly misunderstood your statement.

[nyys]

Non issue, just kick em in the junk and move on.