Is Heroscape more luck or skill?

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

See what I mean?

At what point do you give credit to your opponent for outplaying you? What does it take, if it's at all possible, for someone to declare that they were outplayed. How many losses in a row?

I've acknowledged it bunches of times. Gibberish has beaten me decisively in both of our matches. Phloid from MN is another solid player. I lost one game to a coin toss against Lonewolf, but he absolutely crushed me in the other game. Hendal gave me my second worst loss at GenCon. I was upset with my Nilfheim defensive whiff in my game against Eirikr, but my order marker gaffe in the opening round is what really set me back. In my loss to Matthias Maccabeus, I most assuredly had worse dice, but he played it nearly perfectly and deserved the win. I know he didn't beat Slade with superior dice rolling. In my second tournament, I thought that my Cyprien v. Braxas matchup against Snotwalker 8000 was about a 50/50, but when I checked out the matchup calculator, it was more like 1:4, so I should have lost (and did). Both of my games (a win and a loss) with matrixrenegade at GenCon were close and fun.

I can really only think about 3-4 losses I've had that were purely bad luck, but I can probably think of more undeserved wins that I've had.

[Hypatias_Father]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

See what I mean?

At what point do you give credit to your opponent for outplaying you? What does it take, if it's at all possible, for someone to declare that they were outplayed. How many losses in a row? It seems that, for some, that number is/approaches infinity. I guess it's kind of like those people who never admit they are wrong or who never admit that they have made a mistake. By the way, it's news to me that there is luck/variance in chess. Imagine, all these years I thought it was pure skill! How silly of me.

I always give credit to my opponent for winning, regardless of the circumstances leading to the win. If she wins on average more than I do, I also give her credit for being a better Heroscape player than I am. And why not? The lesson and opportunity for those who lose is to learn to be gracious and ultimately to take joy in other's successes. For winners, the lesson is to be gracious and ultimately grateful for all of the conditions which have underwritten your success.

As for chess involving luck, well of course it does. No chess player is ever entirely in control of every determinative aspect of winning a game; there is still uncertainty to be managed. To me (and to many others), uncertainty is a useful way to measure chance. That doesn't make you silly at all, but probably goes to show that people define luck in slightly different terms. I used chess as an example to show not that there is no difference between the so-called games of chance (Poker, etc.) and games of strategy (Chess, etc.), but that the difference, in terms of managing uncertainty, is one of degree, not kind.

[Elginb]

Luck plays a role in Heroscape, but only if you put yourself in a position for it to be a factor. If somebody makes poor strategic choices from beginning to end, luck will not be a significant influence on the outcome of the game.

If your opponent brings to a tournament a 480pt army composed of Hatamato Taro, Spartacus, Acolarh and Shiori, then your opponent has failed the first skill-test. Even if that army is played well, how often is it going to win against, say, a tournament hardened Glad/Blast army? Another way to phrase it: how much luck would it take for that army to win just one tournament game?

And that's just if your opponent is lacking army-composition skills-- what if he/she's lacking an even rudimentary understanding of strategy? No amount of luck is going to help that opponent.

Really, the answer to this thread's question is: the ratio of luck to skill in Heroscape is proportional to the relative skill levels of the players. It will only ever be a significant factor if the players are fairly close to one another in skill.

It's like bad calls by referees in sports games-- the only time a bad call makes a difference is if the game is close. Luck only makes a difference in Heroscape if the game is close...

[Skeletor]

The only skill in this game is remembering your special powers and getting that hieght advatage. Everything else is the luck of the die.

for all those that voted 75% skill you are lying to yourself

[Shades fan]

Originally Posted by Skeletor

The only skill in this game is remembering your special powers and getting that hieght advatage. Everything else is the luck of the die.

for all those that voted 75% skill you are lying to yourself

I think your lying to yourself as moving, glyph grabbing, and army building is all strategy!

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by Skeletor

The only skill in this game is remembering your special powers and getting that hieght advatage. Everything else is the luck of the die.

for all those that voted 75% skill you are lying to yourself

Then why do we see a conistant group who lead the pack in tournaments (on the local and the national level)?

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Cavalier

Then why do we see a conistant group who lead the pack in tournaments (on the local and the national level)?

Apparently they're the only ones who remember their special powers and get that "hieght advatage" (sic). And they're lucky

~Aldin, lying to himslef (sick)

[dok]

Originally Posted by Skeletor

The only skill in this game is remembering your special powers and getting that hieght advatage. Everything else is the luck of the die.

for all those that voted 75% skill you are lying to yourself

Then explain why I can win literally every game against local friends who don't post here, but lost 2/2 to lonewolf. That's either an extraordinary coincidence of my luck turning at that precise moment, or it's a case of of the more skilled player winning every time.

I'm not arguing it's 100% skill - I've been luckier than average against my friends, and in at least one of the two games against lonewolf I could have won with a bit better dice. But 75% skill certainly sounds reasonable to me - maybe even a hair on the low side.

[Hypatias_Father]

Originally Posted by Skeletor

The only skill in this game is remembering your special powers and getting that hieght advatage. Everything else is the luck of the die.

for all those that voted 75% skill you are lying to yourself

It's all about understanding the contingencies that are involved and formulating priorities for addressing them. Without understanding this, it's easy to gloss over much of the cognitive heavy lifting involved in the game.

There are many competencies to be considered, including but not limited to:

1. Remembering and becoming fluent with your special powers and basic abilities and those of your opponent's.
2. Understanding how special powers and abilities interact with others.
3. Analyzing the comparative probabilities that are involved in mobilizing one set of special powers vs. another in a given context.
4. Understanding how to best prioritize your options (based on 1-3 above), i.e. which figures will take which roles and when.
5. Bluffing/blinding your opponent via order markers (and via other tactical feints).
6. Analyzing vulnerabilities in your opponents' army, and predicting his/her plan and order of attack. (Not to mention the meta-gaming effort of understanding your opponent as player.... habits, temperament, etc.)
7. Efficiently moving across terrain, analyzing hindrances and benefits in identifying the (possibly shifting) boundaries of premium real estate.
8. Having contingency plans for when--not IF--the dice break your heart...

And the list goes on.

[Agent Minivann]

Heroscape is all luck. I'm lucky I have Heroscape.

Sure luck comes into play the odd time, but over time the better player will win.

[Sarpedon]

Good discussion, everyone.

Grungebob wrote that once an attack of 7 failed to punch through a defense of 3. Ok, that stuff happens. But, did it happen 10 times in a row? Conditions: same opponent, identical armies, symetrical map, same glyphs. You lose 10 times in a row. Would anyone look his opponent in the eye after 10 losses and claim that he had beaten him because he had been lucky and the loser had been unlucky? Would anyone have the gall? I sure hope not.

A few unlucky rolls. A whole game of unlucky rolls. Both are believable. We're not talking about that. We're talking about 10 games (or more)! Anyone can cite an extreme example. In those cases, of course you can look up and exclaim "wtf?". However, when your opponent consistently and clearly pounds you into the dirt game after game, at what point do you switch from "wtf?" to "I.F.S.!"?

[Rogue A$$asSIN]

Originally Posted by Skeletor

The only skill in this game is remembering your special powers and getting that hieght advatage. Everything else is the luck of the die.

for all those that voted 75% skill you are lying to yourself

Skeletor said it all, it is what it is. +Rep to you Bro.