The Book of Casual Rule: Knockback

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by wriggz

In the case of Knockback (which explicitely says ignore special powers) and Iron Man's repulsor ray special attack, you are moving (read: controlling the movement of) an opponents figure and don't want them to fly so they fall and take wounds.

But Iron Man's SA does not state that you take control of the figure. Therefore, it is still under the control of who controlled it when it before the attack. IF (and, yes, that's a big if) Flying is allowed to be used when a figure is moved by a special power, it would still be up to the player who controls the figure.

[Hahma]

So if Vulture is pushed or whatever by Iron Man or that type of power, he would get to use this then?

VULTURE GRAB

After moving with the Flying special power, you may either:

• Choose a small or medium figure that Vulture passed over this turn and place the chosen figure adjacent to Vulture. Figures moved by this special power will not take any leaving engagement attacks; or
• Choose a figure equipped with an Equipment Glyph that Vulture passed over this turn and place the chosen figure's Equipment Glyph on this card. If there is already an Equipment Glyph on this card, you may instead place the chosen figure's Equipment Glyph on any empty space Vulture passed over this turn.

Figures under overhangs can never be chosen for this special power.

Hawkeye could do this?

SKYCYCLE CARRY
Before moving, you may choose a tiny, small or medium Common or Unique Hero you control adjacent to Hawkeye. The chosen figure becomes the Skycycle Passenger. After moving, place the Skycycle Passenger adjacent to Hawkeye. The Skycycle Passenger will take any leaving engagement attacks.

[Lazy Orang]

With Knockback, this is irrelevant - the rules clearly state that no movement powers are in effect. So Flying, Phantom Walk etc. don't work when being knocked back.

Also, Happy New Year!

[Hahma]

Correct LO, it was more a question regarding the use of Flying vs. other powers such as Iron Man's repulsors.

Shouldn't be carried on in this thread any longer I suppose as it's a derail. Needs to be further discussed elsewhere.

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by Hahma

So if Vulture is pushed or whatever by Iron Man or that type of power, he would get to use this then?

Hawkeye could do this?

No to both of those, either way the ruling goes. "before moving" and "after moving" are phases of a figure's turn, meaning they can only use those powers on their turn.

Look, @Hahma , you seem to think I'm arguing against you here. I'm not, I actually agree with you somewhat. But as I've said twice before, I want to consider all the possible interactions and previous rulings, then come to a consensus with the other Heroes before a ruling is decided on. You can keep throwing examples of theme oddities at me, but it's not going to change my stance on that.

My current thought is that powers that say "move" would allow figures to use Flying and other powers that state "while moving", but powers that say "place" would not allow units to use Flying. I think this is the most consistent with our other rulings and the intended theme of the powers. Hopefully some of the other Heroes will chime in as well.

[Hahma]

That's cool @TrollBrute .

The current heroes can come to a consensus as to how it will be ruled.

I only through examples out there because I think that if a player can choose to use their Flying special power while an opponent is moving them with the intent of possible falling damage, then people may consider being able to use other powers that involve moving while being moved by an opponent.

To me, the Flying special power is optional and chosen by the player controlling that figure while they are moving them. Like I mentioned before, you can choose to use your Flying power to leave engagement by flying to another space that is still adjacent to the figure you were already engaged with, or you can choose to walk around that figure to the other space and not take a leaving engagement attack.

I have played it that flying figures can take falling damage since the beginning of C3G and GreyOwl has as well as I'm sure others have. From a thematic standpoint, it's just a matter of seeing flying figures in comics and on animated series and movies being slammed to the ground in some fashion or another. They don't automatically avoid getting slammed to the ground just because they can fly.

I'll just butt out of the discussion and continue to play it the way I think it should be played. You guys can decide for yourselves how you want it to be "officially" ruled by C3G.

[Karat]

Personally, I even played it like special movements like MM's TD didn't allow for use of flying. Honestly I'm leaning more towards a ruling that states you may only use flying on your turn, allowing for it to be used with figures like MM, which would still apply if temporary control was exchanged. This would eleminate a bunch of these wonky questions and I see it as very thematic. I mean honestly, how many fliers could actually stop themselves from crashing into the ground after getting caught in some sort of gravitational or throwing type power?

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Karat

Personally, I even played it like special movements like MM's TD didn't allow for use of flying. Honestly I'm leaning more towards a ruling that states you may only use flying on your turn, allowing for it to be used with figures like MM, which would still apply if temporary control was exchanged. This would eleminate a bunch of these wonky questions and I see it as very thematic. I mean honestly, how many fliers could actually stop themselves from crashing into the ground after getting caught in some sort of gravitational or throwing type power?

From a thematic and mechanical standpoint, the 'only on your turn' suggestion seems to make most sense. I don't know how official it is, but it just works really well and I think that's probably how I'm going to play it.

[GreyOwl]

I guess where I get caught up is not so much specifically about knockback or even flying, but just the idea that you can use special powers on your card when it isn't that figure's turn. Is there anything in the official rules that states or even suggests that?

[Sporx]

All defensive powers are used on "not that figure's" turn. So, it is implicit that they may be used when the figure is not the "active" figure. E.g. Hasbro Cap's Counter Strike, Batman I - Evasive Strike.

[GreyOwl]

Well, those explicitly say they're triggered by action on another figure's turn. For example, "When an opponent's figure attacks X with a normal attack...". But for powers that don't explicitly say that, is there an official rule or precedent?

[Sporx]

I guess i didn't understand your question. You asked in general if powers can be used when not that figure's turn. I think it is clear they can be, if there is a trigger. If a trigger was not required, you could use special attacks almost constantly. That would not be fun for anyone.

By the same rationale as you used, flying would be activated whenever the figure is moved. "When counting spaces for X's movement, ignore elevations." "Counting spaces" is the trigger. Knockback explicitly says to ignore flying. So there is no trigger in that situation.