The Book of Crossbones

[MrNobody]

TRIGGER MAN
When attacking a non-adjacent figure with Crossbones's normal attack, if you did not reveal an Order Marker on Crossbones this turn and Crossbones did not move this turn, you may add 1 automatic skull to whatever is rolled.

BRUTALITY 4
When attacking an adjacent figure with Crossbones, if the Attack number on the defending figure's card is 4 or less and the defending figure does not have the Super Strength special power, that figure rolls 1 fewer defense die.

HUMAN SHIELD 12
Anytime Crossbones is attacked by an opponent's non-adjacent figure with a normal attack and at least 1 skull is rolled, you may choose an adjacent small or medium figure without the Super Strength special power that is not the attacking figure and roll the 20-sided die. If you control the chosen figure you may add 5 to the roll. If the figure is a common figure you may add 5 to the roll. If you roll 12 or higher and Crossbones would receive one or more wounds from that attack, ignore one of those wounds and inflict a wound on the figure chosen for Human Shield.

Thoughts on this? Especially looking for opinions from @japes .

He still has weaknesses (1-on-1 melee combat, especially with people stronger than him), but hopefully Human Shield will get more use, especially since you can now keep a HYDRA Agent next to him to prevent melee damage. I think it takes away a little of his ranged advantage in exchange for giving him some additional advantage in melee combat.

My only worry here is adding more "if" clauses in his powers. It's not something I like to do, but overall I think the potential benefit overrules that downside in my mind.

Is this reasonable for 160 points?

[japes]

Honestly I preferred the double attack vs the auto skull. The mini is holding an automatic rifle. Is his range more the issue...

Drop base range to 5

TRIGGER MAN
When attacking a non-adjacent figure with Crossbones's normal attack, if you did not reveal an Order Marker on Crossbones this turn and Crossbones did not move this turn, you may CHOOSE on of the following:

* Add 2 to his range and attack, or
* Double attack

Sorry for the shorthand but I'm mobile

[IAmBatman]

His range is fine. If anything, it's problematic, as you don't want to run him into engagement, because then you don't get to use Trigger Man's effect.

Nobody, the version you posted is a huge nerf on Trigger Man, to the extent that it's not really an appealing power anymore at all, IMO.

[japes]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

His range is fine. If anything, it's problematic, as you don't want to run him into engagement, because then you don't get to use Trigger Man's effect.

Nobody, the version you posted is a huge nerf on Trigger Man, to the extent that it's not really an appealing power anymore at all, IMO.

That's my concern. Trigger Man is the draw for me with Brutality next. The other power is just a thematic power that may not come into play a ton but if you are using Hydra Agents as a screen anyway to keep him unengaged they will be useful here.

I see him as the type of guy that doesn't mind going toe to toe when he knows he can win but otherwise he's going to hide back and shoot from a distance and throw others in the way once he gets some return fire.

On paper that's what he looks like he'd be. Double Attack from 7 spaces away seemed like more an issue that just his double attack. Lots of figures have double attack in the 150-170 range and that's all the time not just conditionally. But they are typically in the 4-5 range so that's why I thought that may be an issue here.

Originally Posted by MrNobody

So here's what we're looking at;

MrNobody (older version @150)
1 win
3 losses

Archie
2 losses

Ronin
1 win
1 loss

Bats
2 wins

There were some fairly big wins but also some sizable losses too. Basically, what I'm getting is that he's good in specific armies, and more balanced in others. Skull+Penguin+Hired Guns is just a good build with or without him, but he slots in very well there.

Without the Penguin/Red Skull team-Up he's 2-6. I think MrNobody nailed it in his comment.

[japes]

My issue is that the only time his cost was questioned was after a test with Penguin II...a figure that offers absolutely nothing to CROSSBONES. He's neither a criminal or a Mastermind and he has no power that counts on winning initiative. Penguin offers RED SKULL plenty...but Crossbones gains no benefits here. So to me the issue is, why are we taxing Crossbones for the RedSkull/Penguin team-up. Looks like Penguin and Red Skull were only tested together once before this and that was against the X-Men.

[MrNobody]

The problem with that build that Bats used is that it’s just a bunch of units that loosely play well with Red Skull stacked on top of each other, and each one amplifies the effect of the other. So is Crossbones paying for the Penguin/Skull synergy because it’s his best build? Yeah, kinda. But I guess I just don’t really see a way around it without either just accepting that build is going to be overpowered for every unit involved or by making a change to one of the other units involved in the build. Neither of those seem super palatable to me.

About to head to work, but I’ll post more involved thoughts when I get back.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by japes

I see him as the type of guy that doesn't mind going toe to toe when he knows he can win but otherwise he's going to hide back and shoot from a distance and throw others in the way once he gets some return fire.

See that's why I think the non-adj clause needs to be dropped from Trigger Man and left in place on Human Shield. If he knows he can brutalize someone, he moves in close and gets to stack the benefits of Trigger Man and Brutalize together. If he knows he can't brutalize someone, he stays back and hides behind a Hyrda Agent screen, using them as human shields while he tries to weaken the stronger foe with a ranged attack. As for range 5 vs. 7, generally 5 speaks more to handgun range and 7 more to rifle range but we've been flexible for game balance concerns before. I'm fine with 5, 6, or 7 range on him. Auto Skull vs. Double Attack I'm pretty flexible on as well. If the feeling is that the double attack is too strong once the non-adj clause is dropped, I don't have a problem with the auto-skull approach. Don't like the no move clause though, that seems like it would weaken the design down below 160.

[japes]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

The problem with that build that Bats used is that it’s just a bunch of units that loosely play well with Red Skull stacked on top of each other, and each one amplifies the effect of the other. So is Crossbones paying for the Penguin/Skull synergy because it’s his best build? Yeah, kinda. But I guess I just don’t really see a way around it without either just accepting that build is going to be overpowered for every unit involved or by making a change to one of the other units involved in the build. Neither of those seem super palatable to me.

About to head to work, but I’ll post more involved thoughts when I get back.

Well purposely making a unit over priced to pay for something else is not super palatable to me either. Especially when it's not even really thematic.

you throw about any decent figure into that build and it will be tough. Even after the Punisher re-eval you put Punisher into this army and it would still be a crushing army...so why would Crossbones be the only figure to absorb this. Crossbones is not anything special for RedSkull or Penguin. If this was 5-10 points it's not a conversation but I'm being told Crossbones needs to go from 160 to 190-200 based ENTIRELY on a Red Skull and Penguin team-up. And that's just Stupid.

[Arch-vile]

Unless I'm mistaken, that Red Skull/Penguin/Crossbones army was only run once. It might be worth trying again before changing everything because we think it's super overpowered.

I guess I thought we were discussing changes because Human Shield & Brutality weren't getting used, but it sounds like we're changing stuff for balance reasons.

[IAmBatman]

Penguin (II) wasn't a huge game changer in my tests. Red Skull was.

Also, I think the conversation is focused on design changes to make sure all the powers are viable/get used. If it's a matter of balance, I think he's close to fine as is, but I'd personally bump him about 20 points.

[japes]

Well he’s 3-6 when penguin is. It in the army so that’s why I’m going to continue question why 20 points should be added to Crossbones when he only did five points of damage in that army. What penguin does it keep Red Skull around longer...that’s why that army is strong.

[Yodaking]

If you are concerned about the Penguin II - Red Skull army being stronger than it's points dictate, then that's a different conversation that has little to due with Crossbones. Continue testing Crossbones in armies without Penguin II in it and determine his final cost based on that.

I'm more concerned that he's consistently been using only 1 power out of the 3. I'd like to see more balance from the design rather then him being reduced to a 1 power card. Right now Trigger Man as a double attack is his most exploitable feature, and the fact he can't engage to use it means Brutalize doesn't complement the design. Then your opponent wants to engage him to shut down Trigger Man, which also bypasses Human Shield at the same time. Kind of leaning towards the auto-skull over double attack the more I think about it. Then bonding with his is a nice little boost but not a doubling of attack potential, making bonding not all important, but rather just a perk.