Noobs and You

[Dredd Stev]

When I was but a young noob around these parts I quickly noticed something. No one really “came down” on me for my posts. This is to be expected perhaps because of a couple of factors:
1) My age (I was 20ish when I first started posing) which afforded me years of practice with the English language.
2) Previous experience with on-line posting standards. I played a lot of PBP rpg’s in my teens and had an appreciation for the difference a well formatted, well thought-out and well edited post can make.
3) I had spent a few months just lurking about Heroscapers as a visitor before I started posting as a member of the community.

Yet many new posters here in the forums are plagued by sub-standard posting and as such get a hard time from many members. This topic has been addressed in several places, most notably by GB, who in this thread calls for a cooler head when dealing with new members to the site.

This is a fair point to make as it is unreasonable to expect everyone to lurk around as I did and really get a feel for the “law of the land”. It seems very counter productive to come down so hard on new members for not using the search function, making double posts or starting ‘useless’ polls. While one of the things I like most about our site is the very high level of organization and the insistence on post quality over quantity, beating new members over the head with such ideals is going to scare many of them off. The goals of quality posting should NOT require that new members feel like outsiders to the point that no one new sticks around.

However I think that indifference is just as bad, a more ‘established’ member shouldn’t just ignore a member who is frequently ignoring the bare minimum of posting standards. Such action will only enforce that it is ‘ok’ to ramble on in TXT speak or to post about how one feels about the Swog rider’s sculpt in the book of Taelord.

Now I should say that I base some of this on the often fickle ‘Rep’ and ‘Post count’ meters. Basically in the last few months I’ve noticed many members with low post counts (50 or less = ‘new member’) have a red Rep bar. I find this a little unnecessary, as most of the time these new members are getting neg-rep for making new-member mistakes. Often times they blatantly break some site standard for posting, but is neg-rep really the best way to handle this?

The inspiration for this post comes from the old rep meter too. I got several +rep comments for my answering of this question by a new member. Several people thanked me for handling the question with a helpful tone, and for pointing him/her in the right direction.

So after that admittedly long winded pre-amble I submit a few quick points that I think everyone should abide by when it comes to new-members and their often lack-luster posts.

1) I know rep is an arbitrary thing that is at a members discretion on how to use… But try to give noobs a little slack. If you see them repeatedly ignore requests for better posts then by all means let the neg-rep cannon fire, but at least give them a chance to improve their posts before they get the dreaded ‘red square” .
2) We all know that tone of voice is easily lost when posting your comments. Things that are meant to be light hearted can often be misinterpreted, taken out of context and in a way totally contrary to how it was meant. Try to avoid this and keep your comments constructive, friendly and straight forward.
3) Don’t just tell them what they’ve done wrong, but give them suggestions on how best to fix it. There are two links in particular I often send to sub-par posters for some light reading (Here and Here). If they post in the wrong forum direct them to the right one, or link them to some similar threads on the subject they put forward. Remind them of the search function too, it may be a little wonky at times but it will often get you results with just a few queries.
4) Don’t be a know-it-all. Don’t be a jerk about it. Just welcome them to the site and give them some friendly advice. If you take the time to help them out, let them know that you are willing to give them further pointers via a PM. That way you not only help out a new member but help clean up the thread he/she was ‘dirtying up’ (so to speak).
5) Encourage other members to help out noobs. The rep I got was a surprise and was much appreciated, but it’s happened now twice for basically just helping out a new member. Rep is fun and a good barometer of how well you are interacting with the community, but is by no means why you should be making good posts. Then again, if it makes members help out noobs in a more positive, constructive way then I think it should be used as such.

So yea that is basically all I wanted to say, I realize now after writing this that the topic has been handled in some detail… I don’t know that my comments here are really anything new or not, but I hope that the topic will indeed be one of consideration where new members are concerned.

I’ll gladly keep helping out noobs the way I have been recently, I’ve received rep from both new and long-time members alike for it, which to me indicates that people at least like the manor in which I addressed the issue. I hope that others will start to do the same too – it seems we’ve had an influx of new posters lately and I can’t see how that’s anything but good for the community and indeed the game.

[Cavalier]

I will say that I have neg-repped newer members (I'm not as patient as Revdyer). However, I will not -rep a new member until I have let them know (usually via PM, sometimes in the thread) that their behavior, style, actions are substandard and will result in a -rep. If they continue, after I have explained it to them, I will issue the promised -rep. I have seen this work with quite a few posters (some with simply the warning, others after issuing the -rep) although, sadly, there have been many who still remain clueless.

[Dredd Stev]

Originally Posted by Cav

I will say that I have neg-repped newer members (I'm not as patient as Revdyer). However, I will not -rep a new member until I have let them know (usually via PM, sometimes in the thread) that their behavior, style, actions are substandard and will result in a -rep. If they continue, after I have explained it to them, I will issue the promised -rep. I have seen this work with quite a few posters (some with simply the warning, others after issuing the -rep) although, sadly, there have been many who still remain clueless.

This sort of action is appropriate Cav, as long as you give them at least one warning that what they are doing is sub-standard and give them advice on how to improve.

I agree that it is truly unfortunate that some member just seem not to care about the very reasonable posting standards we've come to expect around here...

[Onacara]

I will not jump on a new member for bad posting style unless they are told what they are doign wrong and keep doing it. As far as making a comment to them some people take my style as being rude but I usually use a more subtle comment than a blatant one like others use. Kind of like asking someone who's fly is unzipped if they have a licence to sell hot dogs instead of just saying "Hey stupid your fly is open!!!"

The problem I find is that alot of younger members (many of which were as bad if not worse than the noobs when they first came here) take it upon themselves to police and rip a noob but either do not do it tactfully or do it when it is not necessary. Hey I'm no saint but I am not the spawn of hell that some would like to make me out to be.

[Billtog]

Shouldn't this be in Scapers Online?

[InfinityMax]

Yeah! Negative rep for putting the post in the wrong place!

Steve, that's a good post. I've been guilty of dinging people for being retards, and I'm not known for my pleasant demeanor, either in real life or online. But I think you make some valid points, and I do agree that it's counter-productive to slam a new member before giving them a chance to fix their mistakes.

[gamjuven]

That is a good post. You have points, but I think the opposition has some points as well.

I understand the need for being friendly to new people, and being understanding to new players who are asking questions. Everyone should forgive more in their life.

However, I must say it is very annoying to read the same posts again and again. We want to keep this site neat and clean. It shouldn't be too much to ask new members to look around the site thoroughly before making a post. I myself browsed the website for a couple of months before joining and making a comment.

I have a feeling that 99% of the new members that post a question that has been answered a thousand times are too impatient to search for the answer and instead want someone to answer the question right then and there. Now granted the people are usually very polite about the questions (at least the ones that I have witnessed), and so therefore I at least will treat them well. But it is very frustrating to answer a question again and again simpyl because new members demand an answer right away and are too lazy to find the answer for themselves.

I have only neg repped one new member in my life and it was after telling them multiple times not to ask the same question again and again. They did not heed my warning and asked the same question by starting 3 threads with the same title, so I docked them.

Yes, old members should be kind to new members and welcome them, but in the same light new members should respect the old members (and the administrators) and read the threads they are asked to read before posting when they join.

If they don't respect the admins and old members by reading the obvious threads they are supposed to read before posting and instead think they are above such laws, then honestly they shouldn't expect respect from members when they post new threads and such.

I do not hate new members, I love getting new people into the game, and as I said I have only docked a member once, but it is frustrating when people don't read and just open there mouths (or new threads) without thinking.

Your original post will get a rep boost because I think it was well-thought out and deserved to be repped. Old members should read your thread as a reminder to be kind. Hopefully new members will read this thread and acknowledge the need to read first as well.

[markwars]

First of all let me say thank you Dred Stevv for starting this thread. This is a quality subject that should be discussed where the problems exist and no disrespect to Billtog, but the problem threads are definitely here - not in Scapers Online.

As a long time member here (and at this community's past locations) I've seen a lot of n00bs come and go. I've always tried to keep in mind the fact that this community is based around a game with "8 years and older" on its box. This makes much n00bish behavior almost expected, but it's also a chance for the levelheaded to help mold the next generation of fanboys. If we've ever wanted to lose the shackles of stereotypes this is our chance. This is our opportunity to show young geeks how it should be done. And I say all of this tongue in cheek, but as the dad of an 8 year-old I can see how truly beneficial a group of level headed fellas could be to him in a few years when he begins to take his first n00bie steps online.

Another thing that I think is very very important to remember is the tone that this site's admins set. We should emulate that tone. Why? Not because they are asking or expecting it, but because the staff deserves it. They go out of their way every day to toil in the salt mines, so the least all of us can do is follow their example. How many times do you see GB or Truth or LordRaidor pop into a thread to belittle someone, neg rep them, and disappear? If you are going to lay down the law at least back yourself up because I think the admins do appreciate members that post links to the appropriate threads, make an effort to teach someone how to search the forums, or at least offer a friendly hello to the n00bs. Some members do this (think Cav and Rev)....many do not.

And as for laying the smackdown on n00bs I think it's best not to do so at all. That is what the admins are here for. And now I will launch into an oft repeated analogy by me - it was developed during my tenure as site admin at another site altogether, but it is born from the frustration that is inherent to that duty at any site...

This site is the admins' backyard. They allow us to come in and play and be silly and go home without ever cleaning up the mess and never giving a thought to bringing snacks and punch tomorrow. We are all just kids in the neighborhood that happen to know a really cool bunch of folks that make "this" happen every day. It's not our yard and these are not our toys, but they are cool enough to let us come over to play anytime we want. All they want in return is for us to play nice and play appropriately. That's it.

They aren't asking us to do their jobs and in return we should show them that we have faith in their ability to handle these situations. They give us the right to hand out rep points, that's what we should do. But that can be done in the same way that they Admins handle problems now...gently or at least with patience and understanding.

[1Mmirg]

vBulletin Message
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dredd Stev again.

Well, I lost a longer reply to this thread (long story, involving a stray dog, a box, and my wife--no injuries, just some ill-timed antics...).

But, let me say again how nice it is to have you here, Dredd Stev. Love your attitude and approach.

I've repped you for your positive responses to new members before and appreciate that you offer help and constructive feedback in a kind though clear tone.

I have never given a negrep, but I have responded to many posts that I felt were questionable for various reasons--in each case I tried to offer welcome as well as a feedback. I think most people respond well to that kind of approach: Here is something good you did, here is some advice I'd offer, glad to have you here on the boards.

I have also gone and posrepped another post by the same user that is done much better (most do have a good post somewhere)--and made a comment that kindly compares what they did well in this post to something they may have done less well elsewhere.

One last point, perhaps worth offering, is that I almost never negrep someone in the red. It seems clear that someone else has policed this member, I don't need to. I will though take the time to offer a word of advice or a posrep somewhere else to try to steer them a bit to good resources and better posting here at Scapers.

Anyhow, sorry I lost the longer post (you are all probably less sorry than me ...) and again really glad to have you here Dredd Stev. Love your approach to newer members.

[EDIT: Added this thread to the Index, under Netiquette/Scapers Online, where there are other related threads as well, fyi. Again, thanks Dredd. markwars posted while I was posting my own fiasco... My response: Well said!]

[Ty the Awasome]

As a newer member here, I have to agree with Dred. Being hard on a newer member sin't always the best thing to do. I also agree that you should remind the newer member about what he is doing wrong, and point him/her in the right direction. But, neg rep isn't the worst thing in the world. It can help.

A couple of months ago, when I had just started here, I posted a reply in a thread asking about a strategy. I mentioned (kind of rudely) that it could be done like this too, that you didn't have to do it like that. The next day, I received neg rep from a respected member here, who will remain unnamed. At first I was mad, you know, my first rep is negative, why did he do that? But as I thought about it, I realized that he was right. I was rude, and it was uncalled for. I sent a PM apologizing, and from there on out I've been taking great pride in being polite and helpful. Now yes, I would have preferred a PM to remind me, not neg rep, but it did open up my eyes. I wouldn't reccomend neg rep as the first step, but it can work just as well as a PM of reminder.

End speech.

[Jexik]

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

That's my motto with new posters. I almost always pos-rep them if they start with a good attitude, or I just finished pointing out the holes in their strategy. It says- I disagree with your results, but I like the effort.

I've only negrepped someone once, and it was definitely not someone in the red or who just showed up to the site.

[rdhight]

Well, some of those low-post-count members with red rep cards have me to thank. I have docked very new members several times, sometimes for their first posts. I always sign my rep.

I have a personal rule not to neg-rep posts in the general forum, unless they're just completely outside the range of acceptable human behavior. News is also an acceptable toilet bowl as far as I'm concerned. I don't have enough ammo in my rep-gun or enough hours in my day to hit everyone who posts garbage in those places, so I just let that go. The WotC feedback thread alone would be a life's work. But rules? Units? There I'll definitely dock a guy with post count of 1 if I think it's warranted.

Sometimes, there's no response, but it can have positive results. A couple times, the noob has PMed me, asking what rep is, and I've given him a thumbnail version and linked him to the main rep thread. Other times, he's PMed with an apology and/or changed the offending post. In those cases, I have given positive rep in return when the waiting period for hitting the same guy twice is over. So in my experience, noob-docking can indeed result in genuinely improved behavior. I haven't seen any evidence that it's a toxic or harmful practice.

I also don't warn before docking. I would feel very silly. "I don't like what you did, and if you don't shape up, I will, uh... continue to dislike it! A lot!" No, the dock itself is the warning.

gamjuven, I think you have it the most right of anyone: there's got to be a balance of effort and respect between the new and old posters. I don't feel like "You know, this would be a great site if those fracking noobs would stop coming around and messing it up," but I also have no sympathy for "Poor me, people gave me a hard time for my first post, why won't those bad old regulars let me get settled in?" If we want a good site, we have to set standards for both: high expectations for the old, established guys and high expectations for the new ones too. Yeah, there's a right way and a wrong way for the site supporter with 3000 posts to use that rep-cannon, but there's a right way and a wrong way to make your first post, too.

Whew, this is turning into a wide-ranging rant! My last point is that we shouldn't feel like we need some ironclad policy for our rep. We're not government agencies or referees; we're just guys on a messageboard swapping points that don't mean anything. Sometimes, when I see a huge sig image attached to a stinky post, I send a request for image reduction attached to a -rep. If I see an equal-sized image under a good post, maybe I send a PM instead. If someone posts garbage in the rules forum, I might dock it if I'm the first responder. If I'm the 10th and people have complained in public, or the thread is already locked, I usually let it go. If you read two dumb questions in the forum and you want to answer the one with good grammar and dock the txt-speaker, that's your right. Don't take the rep you give (or get!) more seriously than it deserves.