The Book of Sin

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

You can have my goat if it helps

[Ericth74]

I'll plan on running Sin's initial this week.

[Ericth74]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Sin

Version tested:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = SIN
SECRET IDENTITY = SINTHEA SHMIDT

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = TERRORIST
PERSONALITY = SADISTIC

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 6
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = 140

SADISTIC DISTRACTION
If a figure that you control attacks an opponent's figure that is engaged with Sin, you may reduce the opponent's figure's and defense by 1 or 2 if the attacking figure is a Terrorist or Mastermind.

HYDRA ASSAULT
Once per round, after revealing an order marker on this card, if Sin ends her turn adjacent to an opponent's figure you may take a turn with a Terrorist, Mastermind or a figure named Red Skull that you control. You may not take any additional turns with other figures you control.

RUTHLESS COUNTER STRIKE
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, if Sin is not destroyed by this attack, all skulls rolled count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Army Test
Map: Custom Map - Suburban Showdown
Units: Red Skull 250, Crossbones, Baron Von Strucker, Sin, Hydra Agents x 3 VS Black Canary(JLA), Wonder Woman(JLA), Hawkwoman(JLA), Green Arrow(JLA)

Spoiler Alert!

Damage Dealt: R3T1 Hawkwoman 1 wound - Distracted

Sadistic Distraction: Allowed for Hydra Agents to get multiple attacks ona few figures. Unfortunately with their attack or 2 and poor rolls it didn't pay off that much. It did help to put 3 wounds on Hawkwoman.

Hydra Assualt: Was able to take 2 turns with Red Skull

Ruthless Counter Strike: Was always attacked from range.

Poor showing by Sin as I didn't use her very efficiently. Never got a Hydra Advance in with Crossbones. The buffed up JLA stood up strong against the weak Hydra Agents attacks. Game results look closer than it was.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Green Arrow 3 wounds/2 life left, Wonder Woman 3 wounds/3 life left

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: City Park
Units: Baron Zemo 170, Gorgon 300, Crossbones, Sin, Venom Pigeon VS Weather Wizard 100, Top, Abra Kadabra, Captain Cold, Tar Pit

Spoiler Alert!

Damage Dealt: R2T3 Top 1 wound Distracted
R3T1 Abra Kadabra 1 wound Distracted
R4T1 Tar Pit 3 wounds Distracted



Sadistic Distraction: Used every time Sin attacked. Crossbones got 3 attacks in on figues who were distracted.

Hydra Assualt: Used three times, all with Crossbones getting the extra attacks

Ruthless Counter Strike: was always attacked from Range

R1 - All movement. Crossbones attacks a tree and misses.
R2 - Tar Pit attacks a tree and misses. Captain Cold does 1 wound to Sin from range. Crossbones attacks Captain Cold from range doing 4 wounds. Cold and Weather Wizard attack Crossbones doing 1 wound each. Crossbones attacks Captain Cold but Weather Wizard Fogs it. Top attacks Sin for 1 wound. Sin attacks Top doing 1 wound. Crossbones attacks Top twice while Top is Distracted, he takes 3 wounds and is removed from the game.
R3 - Sin moves adjecent to Abra Kadabra and attacks him for a wound. Crossbones takes a turn with Hydra advance attacking Abra from range twice doing a wound each time. Abra's defense was reduced to 1. Cold and Weather both attack Sin but are blocked. Crossbones tries to attack Abra but is Fogged out, he attacks a tree instead. The tree dies and falls on Abra taking him out. Tar Pit hits Zemo for 2 wounds. Zemo X-markers Colds turn.
R4 - Sin engages Tar Pit and attacks, doing 3 wounds. Crossbones attacks with Hydra Advance doing 1 wound and taking out Tar Pit. Cold attacks Sin from range doing 1 wound. Weather Wizard attacks Sin with Lightning but its blocked. Crossbones attacks Cold doing 1 wound and killing him he then attacks Weather Wizard and hits him for 3 wounds. Weather Wizard has his turn negated by Zemo. Crossbones attacks Weather but misses both attacks. Weather Wizard attacks Sin and does a wound killing her.
R5 - Zemo negated Weather Wizard's turn. Gorgon kills Weather Wizard.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Gorgon full 6 life left, Zemo 2 wounds/2 life left, Crossbones 3 wounds/1 life left, Venom Pigeon full 2 life left

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sewer Labyrinth
Units: Baron Zemo 170, Crossbones, Sin, Gorgon, Green Goblin VS Fantastic Four

Spoiler Alert!

Damage Dealt: R3T1 Thing 2 wounds - Distracted


Sadistic Distraction: Helped put 4 wounds on The Thing

Hydra Assualt: Allowed Crossbones to get an extra turn hitting Thing for 2 wounds.

Ruthless Counter Strike: Not used

Rd 1 - Movement
Rd 2 - Invisible Woman attacks Green Goblin but its blocked. Torch attacks Sin, blocked. Thing attacks Gorgon, blocked. Mr F attacks Green Goblin, blocked. Green Goblin SA Torch/Invisible Woman, Invisible takes a wound. Goblin attacks Invisible Woman again doing 2 wounds. Torch hit Green Goblin for a wound. Mr F wraps up Green Goblin and attacks him but its blocked. Green Goblin attacks and kills Invisible Woman.
Rd 3 - Gorgon SA against Thing, blocked. Torch htis Green Goblin with Flame On for 2 wounds then attacks Sin from Range for 2 wounds. Sin engages Thing and attacks doing 2 wounds. Crossbones attacks Thing twice with Hydra Advance, doing 2 wounds. Johnny hits Sin with Flame On doing 2 wounds killing her. Mr Fantastic kills Green Goblin.
Rd 4 - Crossbones attacks Torch for 1 wound. Torch has his turn negated by Zemo. Thing attack Gorgon, doing 2 wounds. Mr F hits Crossbones for 3 wounds from range, but only takes 2 as he gives 1 to Zemo using Human Shield. Crossbones attacks Torch for 1 wound. Torch goes Supernova and kills Crossbones, does 2 wounds to Zemo and 1 wound to Gorgon. Thing attacks Gorgon, but its Blocked. Mr F attacks Zemo doing the last wound.
Rd 5 - Gorgon kills Thing. Torch attacks Gorgon, blocked. Mr F attack Gorgon from range, blocked. Gorgon attacks Torch, killing him as torch rolls 4 blanks. Mr F attacks Gorgon from range but its blocked. Gorgon engages Mr F and attacks but its blocked. Mr F does 1 wound to Gorgon.
Rd 6 Gorgon does 3 wounds to Mr F. Mr F finishes off Gorgon to win the Game

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Mr Fantastic 3 wounds/2 life left

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: 140 points seems right. In the right spots her Sadistic Distraction can be really powerful. Can hopefully boost Hydra builds. Works well with Baron Zemo 170 builds too. Zemo, Crossbones and Sin are a nice 470 pt base.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: Sin is a little soft with 4 life and 4 defense. Hopefully her Counter Strike should help keep her around. In my games most of the damage she took was from range, as the Counter Strike possibility scared enemies out of engaging with her. In the right spots her Sadistic Distraction can be strong, but it comes at a price of putting a bullseye on her. Hydra Advance allows her to capitalize on her engagement, but only once a round. If the order markers are right when paired with Hydra Agents she can give them some help by reducing a figures defense by 2 for them. With their weak 2 attack its a potential big boost. Although in my game they failed to roll more than 1 skull way too many times. Sin is a solid piece to add to Terrorist or Mastermind builds.

[Ericth74]

Sin went 1 and 2. One big win, 1 medium loss and a razor close loss. I'm got with moving her forward to Public Playtesting at 140 pts.

I propose we move Sin forward to Public Playtesting

[Arch-vile]

yea

[Tornado]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

yea

[Ronin]

yea

[MrNobody]

Yea, though I do think the SP might needs a wording double-check. I'm assuming the first power should look something more like this?

SADISTIC DISTRACTION
If a figure that you control attacks an opponent's figure that is engaged with Sin, you may reduce the opponent's figure's and Defense number by 1, or 2 if the attacking figure is a Terrorist or Mastermind.

Also, finally had the time to slog through the Crossbones thread - sorry it took so long, but I was putting it off. Here's a big cross-section of talk about why we designed the power like we did. (You can jump into the actual discussion by clicking on the first quoted post.)

Spoiler Alert!

Originally Posted by MrNobody

What if it was just based off the number of attack dice Crossbones actually rolls vs. the number of defense dice the opponent’s figure rolls?

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I'd actually much prefer it if we could swing it so that it was affected by attack boosts. Seems more fun, more thematic, more tactical, IMO.

Originally Posted by Ronin

Factoring in attack boosters? Down that road lies madness. Just use the numbers on the card.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I highly doubt that'll be the case. Two ranged attacks is better than one melee attack -1 defence, most of the time. OM managers are pretty much a necessity for this guy.
Captain America + Ms. Marvel or Wasp (vII) could work, but Red Skull and the Zemos I expect'll be his go-tos.

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

I'm not sure a potential -1D is worthy enough to build an army around. Sure he'd be good with Cap and StarLord, but anyone is. I'm fine either way here. Number for simplicity, or dice rolled for theme. Doesn't matter to me.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Dice rolled at least gives him a chance of affecting a decent-ish number of characters if he can claim height. It almost becomes Kneel Before Zod-lite. I like that.
I'm definitely in favour of that direction.

Originally Posted by japes

We are on the same page here.

I agree with you mostly here. For me though it's more, I don't mind it being a cool side effect that just happens while making a thematic fit. I just don't like it to be intentional.

That's my position. We have plenty of discussions about similar issues, yet here we are intentionally adding in another one. Though, Yes, I agree this is a lesser issue...NOW. but later may be a different story.

nearly a third of our designs is not a decent'ish enough number? He's a well trained human not a Mutate/Mutant/Metahuman or any other powered being. That feels about right to me. He shouldn't be putting a smack down to a lot of powered beings.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Originally Posted by Matt Helm

As far as wording goes, forgive me if there is a C3G precedent that I’m ignorant of, but should Brutality reference the “attack value on the card”.

BRUTALITY
When attacking an adjacent figure with Crossbones, if the attack value on this card is the same or higher than that on the card of the defending figure, the defending figure subtracts 1 from its Defense.

Otherwise height, glyphs or special power bonuses could give him a much higher “attack” than many defending cards. Unless of course that’s the intent.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

There's somewhat of a debate between going with the attack number (i.e. what's printed on the card) and the number of attack dice they're rolling. I believe the LD here is leaning towards the former.

Had to double check myself on whether "attack value" or "attack number" is official (I've always used "number" and seen it used in C3G) and Finn came to my rescue

Originally Posted by Matt Helm

Nice. I guess you can go either way.



I do think your safer referencing “... on this card...” no matter which way you go.

Originally Posted by japes

As the original drafted here I agree and don’t think height and attack boosters should help here.

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I’m generally inclined to agree too.

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

Wasn't aware this was a thing until just now, but anyway:

Just going to chime in to say that the Brutality power is irrelevant from a competitive perspective no matter how it ends up working exactly because the payoff is so minor. It is not a CRB issue by any remote stretch (not really following why people thought it would be?). The power could just be 'when Crossbones attacks an adjacent figure, he subtracts one die from their defense' with no restrictions attached and it would still be totally, utterly, irrelevant CRB wise.

On a similar note, whether or not it factors in attack boosts or not has basically zero impact on how strong a pairing he is with Cap or Star-Lord or whatever. He already pairs very well with Cap thanks to his important power (the ranged double attack bit), how well his flavor text pairs with Cap is irrelevant at that stage.

The important part of this design is he's a ranged double attacker that can protect himself with cheap crap like ants or what-not and has some resistance to tie-down figures and such. That is what needs to be tested or factored in or adjusted if there are problems or what-not. That is what people should try to optimize and break. Getting Brutality correct theme-wise is all well and good, but it feels like we're getting a little lost in the woods here and focusing on it too much mechanically over his actually important powers.

Anyway, CRB public service announcement now concluded, design looks fun, glad to see him finally up and running.

Originally Posted by johnny139

So with the original drafter and current LD on board with sticking an "on this card" in there, I think we're probably ready to roll with that for now. Maybe poll it out if there's any strenuous supporters otherwise.

Originally Posted by Karat

I'd just go with attack value or number since it isn't potentially broken from a CRB perspective, but ultimately fine either way.

Basically, it seems like there was concern about confusion around what counts as boosting an attack number/what counts as boosting an attack roll, and also some concern about -1 Defense being too powerful of an effect?

So the intent was definitely for figures like Sin not to be able to meddle with Brutality. Whether that's a good decision is up to debate, but it looks like we've already moved on from that direction here anyways.

[IAmBatman]

I'd probably say "enemy figure" to avoid that awkward double possessive phrase.

[IAmBatman]

Seems like the important takeaway from that spoiler recap is that it was always a low impact/competitively low value power and this was known during the LD.

[Ericth74]

Updated

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Yea, though I do think the SP might needs a wording double-check. I'm assuming the first power should look something more like this?

Also, finally had the time to slog through the Crossbones thread - sorry it took so long, but I was putting it off. Here's a big cross-section of talk about why we designed the power like we did. (You can jump into the actual discussion by clicking on the first quoted post.)

Spoiler Alert!

Basically, it seems like there was concern about confusion around what counts as boosting an attack number/what counts as boosting an attack roll, and also some concern about -1 Defense being too powerful of an effect?

So the intent was definitely for figures like Sin not to be able to meddle with Brutality. Whether that's a good decision is up to debate, but it looks like we've already moved on from that direction here anyways.