Case Study - Stingers versus 'Squad Killing' Heroes

[SuperflyTNT]

Well, I'd put the Stingers ahead of the Rats and 4th Mass any day of the week. They're not nearly as situational. They are the 'all-purpose killing machine squad'.

I agree on the Blasts and Glads, they can be a one-shot army...provided no DeathWalkers or Zellie-Rigs are around...

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

Well, I'd put the Stingers ahead of the Rats and 4th Mass any day of the week. They're not nearly as situational. They are the 'all-purpose killing machine squad'.

I agree on the Blasts and Glads, they can be a one-shot army...provided no DeathWalkers or Zellie-Rigs are around...

You think the Rats and 4th are situational? I'd argue that quite a bit. I think the Stingers are more situational than either of them.

The 4th can beat squads or heroes. They have a little bit of trouble against Q9, but there are enough Valiant units that can punch through his defense, or hold him at bay long enough for WTF to get to him. They beat most squads pretty brutally.

The Rats are good against anything. 4 defense on a 10 point figure is just amazing.

Stingers suffer against other swarm armies (in my experience) because they either can't match the number of attacks, or they can't match the range of the attacks, or both. They do a great job against heroes and uniques though, because of their sheer firepower. Trons and Mass though (and maybe even 10th too, though I don't think they're a "better" squad) can take down Stingers pretty handily, as can the KoW IMO.

[nyys]

Can rats and stingers really be compared though? Each ones purpose is vastly different.

[Chimpy]

Interesting exercise. My concern is one that others have brought up already- this is a test in conducted in a vacuum. In a real game, these *heroes would have their own melee shield, and a support hero to boot. If you had to take down a rat-guarded, Raelin-boosted Braxas, the story would be quite different, I think.


*The only one of these heroes that I can feasibly see engaging in such a match-up is Q9, and that only because he outranges the Stingers and may be able to prevent them from firing en masse.

[Toad Rocket]

Well, even without support in most cases the hero would be moving to prevent three stingers to be able to get him at a time. Picking off stingers by edges, LOS blockers? Stuff like that.
Having the Hero stand in front of a line of stingers trading shots would be pretty darn crazy thing for the hero to do in normal circumstances.

[Descife]

Originally Posted by killercactus

Secondly, I don't think I'd advise Draining against any hero, even if the numbers statistically say so. Remember that you aren't just losing a Stinger, you're losing 3 movements and 3 attacks. Giving your opponent two free turns can really wipe out your positioning. Also, draining on Order Marker #3 in a round you've won initiative is even riskier. A fail there could give your opponent 3 free turns.

Just some things to consider...

Killercactus, I had to go back and read the card on Stingers, but you don't lose your movement for the turn if you drain. You roll the dice after moving, so its just the attack that is stopped. I'm still not sure whether it is better to drain or not. Its all situational.

[SuperflyTNT]

I believe it's worth it to drain, almost always when you have more than 1 shot.

As for situational, let me pose these:

1. 4th Mass, when not used in a Valiant Army, suck ass. Better to have the 10th Reg. Stingers, however, fit well with anyone, more or less.

2. Rats, although they are great Glyph-Grabbers, are weak attackers at best, and although they are good to stop incoming forces they don't do much to ranged attacks and can be picked off. I do understand that they can scatter forward to lock down ranged attackers, but only if there's no opposing forces moving forward. Again, situational.

I have more, but I am tired, about to play Runebound, and I ate at Cracker Barrel, so I am likely to take a hot crap here within the hour....

[kpotassiumk19]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

I believe it's worth it to drain, almost always when you have more than 1 shot.

Not for me, I have the worst stinger drain luck. One game, I used a marro army that had x2 stingers, and even with SBN's support, 4 of the 6 were killed from stinger drain.

Usually I have bad luck anyway (really bad), unless Retiarius is standing behind the figure. (inside joke between my friends and I). Once I had x2 Stingers (ironic right?) left against my friend's samurai army and he had Kaemon and about x2 TSA. I vaguely remember this, so I don't remerber the details. My friend picked up Retiarius and decided to place him behind Kaemon. Next turn, I somehow managed to roll for the drain and almost killed Kaemon. Then I placed him behind my stingers and they fended off the attacks. It was pretty funny at the time although it didn't hold up forever after I failed a stinger drain with 2 left and the next one was killed. I think 2 or 3 stingers killed themselves at the end of that game.

Now I never roll for stinger drain anymore, and I decided to use it for once a couple days ago when I was testing the capuans and guess what, I rolled a 1.

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

As for situational, let me pose these:

1. 4th Mass, when not used in a Valiant Army, suck ass. Better to have the 10th Reg. Stingers, however, fit well with anyone, more or less.

See, when I look at the 4th Mass, I see them as their own army (kind of like the Elf Wizards or the Trons), because they're obviously meant to be played with Valiant units. I meant the "Valiant Army" wasn't situational. The unit is, if you consider its uses outside a Valiant army, which are few. With the 10th, there really isn't much use for them outside of Valiancy.

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

2. Rats, although they are great Glyph-Grabbers, are weak attackers at best, and although they are good to stop incoming forces they don't do much to ranged attacks and can be picked off. I do understand that they can scatter forward to lock down ranged attackers, but only if there's no opposing forces moving forward. Again, situational.

This, I'm not sure that I follow. You're saying they're good against incoming forces, but then you say they're only good against range when there are no incoming forces....

The rats do many things well. Against "incoming forces", such as the Knights or Gladiatrons for instance, you can set up a wall of rats so that the melee figures can't penetrate to your back ranks, where the attackers live. The wall rebuilds itself thanks to Scatter, and the Knights and Trons get shot while trying to break through the self-repairing wall.

Against range, the rats' job is to engage and draw fire. No matter how much of an incoming force your opponent has in front of his range, the rats can still reach the ranged figures thanks to Disengage, or they can form the wall again and block the incoming forces. Sure, if this happens the ranged figures will be shooting your rats, who can then Scatter (if they aren't Special Attacks). Would you rather they were shooting your attackers?

And, therein lies the beauty of Deathreavers - their 4 defense can hold up well against ranged commons, and they're super-cheap. All those attacks get basically wasted on 10 point figures, when your big guns are roaming around unchecked, firing at everything. This can be done no matter what opponent you have across from you - even Special Attackers if you just spend a couple of extra OM's on the Deathreavers.

And, heaven forbid the Common Attack glyph is on the board. 4 attacks of 2 is still a good attacking turn in Heroscape. I've seen Deathreavers kill 3 squads of Valiant 4th Mass, multiple Stinger squads, and even kill Su-Bak-Na in one Order Marker. While attacking isn't their strong suit, it shouldn't be overlooked.

[Jexik]

4th Mass and rats are totally situational. They're only good if you're trying to win.

[dok]

Originally Posted by kpotassiumk19

Not for me, I have the worst stinger drain luck.

It's not just you, it's the cold hard verdict of the statistics. Draining against medium-to-low defense squaddies is simply a poor decision, unless you are losing really badly and need to get lucky for a comeback.

The probability tables only show half the story, because you have to take into account losing a figure on a failed drain. Typically, you should drain against Deathwalkers and multi-life heroes with 5+ defense. That's about where I find the break-even point.

ETA: ok, I often roll to drain against 4-defense multi-life heroes, too. But I wonder whether that's just my gambling ways as I do it.

[SuperflyTNT]

Let me elaborate.

Rats are good to act as blockers, no more, no less. They are shields to allow your shooters time to kill the figures engaged to the rats, and also are good to keep and hold Glyphs. They have almost no offensive value, except to take and hold position. That's what I meant.

To elaborate further, they're good to stop melee fighters from advancing on your shooters, so your shooters can pick off the incoming forces. That's what I meant, no contradiction.

As far as situational tactics, if you're not playing a Knights army, the 10th Mass are practically useless. There are myriad units better for the 4-man shooter squad than they are provided you get no valiant bonus. Stingers have no such situational problems, and at 60 points for 3 figures with 3/3 and decent range and speed, they trump the 4th Mass in all situations aside from the Valiant bonus. Even then, it's close.

My point in all of this is that the Stingers are the king sh8 for a ranged, powerful squad to defeat squads and heroes alike. For example, if you get 3 shots of 3 or 4 on some ranged or non-ranged attackers, you can expect to take out one or two of them. I play the Vietnam version of Heroscape, where instead of wasting OMs killing an entire squad (or cadre of the same squads) I try to attack until the squad has 2 figures left, crippling their battlefield effectiveness. Against Heroes, though, I like them as they are mobile enough to take high ground, have drain which potentially can earn them a total of 5 attack dice, 3 times per order marker. That's 15 dice total for 60 points. That's a nice little chunk of the funk.