Heroscape vs Heroclix

[LordDamos]

Let me start with I like both games. We were talking in another thread and several people were complaining about power creep in Heroclix (and other games). I just thought I would throw my opinions out there to see what others thought.

I agree power creep exists, but I don't think it as powerful as some think. To me the bigger culprit is mechanics creep. In the case of Heroclix the Battlefield effects cards were the deal breaker for me. No amount of planning and army building can counteract the impact of a 0 cost Battlefield Effects card. The equivalent in Heroscape would be a player being allowed to declare all spaces are lava after the armies are declared. Many battles in Heroclix are practically decided before they are fought simply by placing a Battlefield Effect card in play.

That said, Heroclix (except for the intro of the BE cards) is less random than Heroscape and (pull out the rotten eggs) more skill oriented. A good Heroclix player will beat an average Heroclix player almost every time, even when both players have identical armies. Heroclix is like chess in that manner. In contrast luck is a more of a factor in Heroscape. The better player might win 60% of the time, but 40% of the time the dice just won't roll right. Heroscape is more like baseball, a few lucky homeruns (or a bobbled grounder) and the game can be lost. That doesn't mean one game is superior... they are just different. In both games the better player will win more than he/she loses. Just don't play Heroscape and expect to have a 90% win ratio.

With regards to money... let's face it both games are pretty darn expensive. I have hundreds of dollars worth of Heroclix figures and I have hundreds of dollars of Heroscape sets. However, I do think money is more of a factor in Heroclix (you absolutely must have the better pieces to be competitive in pre-built tournaments). In Heroscape people buy because they like the variety, not because it is essential to being competitive.

This leads to the question of why aren't all units (in either game) equally useful. Simple, that is impossible to do. In games like Heroscape and Heroclix the value of a power or ability is an arbitrary assignment from the game designer. Sure you can create formulas (e.g. Flying cost 10 extra build points), but any value you assign is just a guess (maybe Flying is really more of a 15 point bonus, or with some power combination Flying is more useful). Ultimately all you can do is playtest and hope your build point assignments are close enough to create doubt in the players. If players are debating which character (or combination of characters) is better then you've hit that middle ground where creative army building and game play occurs.

Last note, Heroscape is still a very young game in terms of design options. There are fewer unique stat figures available after 5 years of Heroscape than their were on day 1 of Heroclix. Heroclix's higher variety also saddles it with a higher chance of "problem" characters.

[SgtHulka]

I used to play regularly in Heroclix tournaments, right before they changed the rules on flying figures carrying other figures. Don't get me wrong -- I actually liked the rule changes, that's not why I quit. I quit because my life changed and I didn't have the time to go to the monthly tournaments.

The release schedule for Wizkids was perfect for someone like me. They released new sets regularly enough that it kept the game fresh, but not so quickly that you couldn't fully learn the game with the current set before a new set was released. D&D Miniatures is an example of a game that releases sets way too fast, in my humble opinion.

The dial mechanic works very well for a superhero combat game. I can see how they'd work extremely well for battletech, too, though I haven't played mechwarrior. The color coding and dials allowed for many different combinations of super-powers, though that didn't prevent people from constantly debating whether the powers were "right" on their favorite Superhero.

I'm curious as to how Marvel Heroscape feels. I'm skeptical that they can do a better job than Heroclix with the superhero genre. But the thing I'm really looking forward to is being able to play whichever game I like better -- Heroclix or Marvelscape -- on the Heroscape terrain.

I'm not sure I agree that Heroclix is more "skill" based. I'll admit I haven't played enough Heroscape yet to say with authority, but reading over the battle reports on this site and getting to know the game better, it still seems like a pretty tactical game. The squad mechanics of Heroscape are extremely interesting (though, again, maybe not so well-suited to a superhero genre game), and the order marker system pushes it over the top, in my opinion, as a skill-based game. Sure, a lucky or unlucky run with the dice can turn things around, but that's the same in Heroclix.

Heroscape beats Heroclix hands-down on the visual appeal. The Heroscape figures are, in general, better painted than the Heroclix ones. And the Heroscape terrain is amazing.

That said, I give Wizkids mad props for identifying their sculptors (they are identified in the promo posters of each new Heroclix release). Also, the Heroclix figures are extremely easy to strip with acetone, and if you re-paint them they can look really good, because the sculpts are quite good. You just can't get away from the ugly click bases and the ugly flat maps. If I like Marvelscape, I will likely use Heroclix re-paints re-mounted on Heroscape bases.

[HSisforcoolkids]

I've never played Heroclix so I can't compare, but I will say that better players in Heroscape generally do win more than average players (in my experience, ~75% of the time). I had a group of 10-12 players that would play regularly, usually in four player battles. While most of the players won a game here or there at some point, there were three of us who were clearly better than the rest, and one of us won almost every game. One of my friends stood out above everybody and probably won 40-50% of games, which is impressive in a four player free-for-all setting. While luck is a big factor in Heroscape, I would say that superior tactics will take home the cake almost every time.

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

I've never played Heroclix.



Though I do know if by accident I drop a Juggernaut figure on my garage floor, it shatters at the knee (actually happened, by the way...).
I can drop Krug dozens of times, and he still comes back up with that toofy grin on his face.


Nothing can stop the Juggernaut?
Yeah, right. Gimme a break.

[Eclipse]

Is it really necessary to post this again? The topic you first posted in is still quite active and you haven't replied to the responses there. This topic seems more interesting in the Marvel section anyway. Either way, here's my cut and paste response from before:

Originally Posted by LordDamos

With regards to money... let's face it both games are pretty darn expensive. I have hundreds of dollars worth of Heroclix figures and I have hundreds of dollars of Heroscape sets. However, I do think money is more of a factor in Heroclix (you absolutely must have the better pieces to be competitive in pre-built tournaments). In Heroscape people buy because they like the variety, not because it is essential to being competitive.

But you're not comparing equal amounts of game in your cost analysis here. I've got hundreds (thousands?) of dollars worth of Heroscape figures, but that's taking into account my entire collection, including figures that I own (often multiples of) just to have everything. You're comparing this to the cost of a competetive army in Heroclix, which is only a fraction of my collection. One of the most competetive armies I know of consists of the following:

180 points - Major Q9 - Raknar's Vision - $20
080 points - 2x Deathreavers - 2x Wave 5 packs - $20
080 points - Raelin - Master Set - $40

Add in an addition 60-160 points of whatever unit you prefer, which will likely cost you $20 or less depending on what you pick (I'd lean towards the Krav which adds $0 considering you've already purchased Raelin from the Master set). That brings you get a grand total of $100 dollars for a truly competitive, tournament worthy army in Heroscape. I'm not particularly well versed in collectible games, but can you really field anything that competitive for that much in most other games or even Heroclix for that matter?

[netherspirit]

Originally Posted by Eclipse

One of the most competetive armies I know of consists of the following:

180 points - Major Q9 - Raknar's Vision - $20
080 points - 2x Deathreavers - 2x Wave 5 packs - $20
080 points - Raelin - Master Set - $40

Add in an addition 60-160 points of whatever unit you prefer, which will likely cost you $20 or less depending on what you pick (I'd lean towards the Krav which adds $0 considering you've already purchased Raelin from the Master set). That brings you get a grand total of $100 dollars for a truly competitive, tournament worthy army in Heroscape. I'm not particularly well versed in collectible games, but can you really field anything that competitive for that much in most other games or even Heroclix for that matter?

Not to mention all the other figures you got in getting those.

In addition to what you used in that army you still have these:

Braxas, Nilfheim, Theracus, Jotun
2 Squads of Warriors of Ashra
All the rest of the Master set figures

You could make a few competitive armies with all those figures.

[happyjosiah]

I would argue that heroscape has MORE skill involved than heroclix. I have only played a couple times, but I played with someone who knew what he was doing (and wasn't going easy) and I still held my own, mostly because a lot was based on dice. Heroscape success is all about movement, order markers, and knowing how to use terrain and glyphs. Dice are secondary. Maybe tertiary. Or fourth-iary.

[Riptide]

Originally Posted by happyjosiah

Or fourth-iary.

That is great! I'll have to use that here at work.

[Roufus]

Originally Posted by Riptide

That is great! I'll have to use that here at work.

The official and correct word is 'Quaternary', though I'm not 100% on the spelling.

[heroscapewanabchamp]

This reminds me of my old " Witch is better Batllelore, Heroscape"

[NecroBlade]

Heroclix boards are flat. The end.

[LordDamos]

Why did I repost here... because it wasn't really a Marvel Heroscape only topic and I wanted to put it in the right setting...

That said I still stick by my assertion that Heroclix is more of a skill game than Heroscape (but there is still plenty of skill in Heroscape). There are a lot of reasons for this:

1) Heroscape squads only have one life per unit. A couple of lucky rolls and a squad is toast. In Heroclix even small units can usually take a hit and live another turn.

2) More generous line of sight rules in Heroscape. Try and hide on a Heroscape board. It is not very easy, and it won't do you much good because...

3) There is very little "Healing" in Heroscape. Most armies do not have a heal option. In contrast many Heroclix characters have regeneration or the ability to heal other characters. Skillful movement and the use of healers can counteract a lot of bad luck.

4) Dice curve -- I don't know the math but I suspect there is a steeper % to hit dice curve in Heroscape. (Can anyone prove/disprove this?)

5) The push/don't push option adds a tremendous amount of skillful decision making to Heroclix battles. In contrast the generals never have to make similar decisions in Heroscape.

6) Army Synergy -- The opportunities for synergy in Heroclix are greater. A well crafted army has a tremendous advantage over a poorly constructed one.