Unit Debate #67 -- Jotun vs. Fen Hydra

[MegaSilver]

I ask that you don't use this format without permission to preserve the quality of the Unit Debates and avoid confusion.



This Unit Debate was selected by marrowick.

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefulness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

6. Best Strategic Use

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl

[nate the dawg]

Hehehe...you got right on it!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Review to follow, but halftime's almost over, and I'm not done cussing at my Cowboys yet...

[nate the dawg]

Originally Posted by nate the dawg

Hehehe...you got right on it!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Review to follow, but halftime's almost over, and I'm not done cussing at my Cowboys yet...

While I'm still certainly not done cussing about the Cowboys, at least the game is over!

1. Stats/Special Powers - Jotun's Life is obviously superior; 7 > 4, but the Hydra's defense evens it up a bit. While the Hydra will be harder to hit, Jotun will last through a few more attacks. Also, eight attack dice seems a bit inferior to four attacks of four, but Jotun's attack power doesn't diminish when he's hit. The Hydra has an advantage with a range of two, but absent height advantage I'm not sure just how large an advantage it is. Movement is barely in favor of Jotun, and I don't believe either sculpt prevents the units from finding good placement.

The Hydra's Heads power is wonderful (four attacks!); in fact it's the greatest part of why the Fen Hydra is one of my favorite units. Like Krug's Wounded Smash, it's one of the most sensible and thematic powers in the game, but it's a double-edged blade that quickly renders an unfortunate Hydra nearly impotent. Slither is always helpful, but considering that the Hydra is double-spaced it could cross narrow rivers anyway. As stated, Reach is advantageous, but IMO it's only really helpful if you've got an opponent's figure(s) engaged with your melee screen. The powers of the Fen Hydra are well composed and make for a straight-forward offensive monster.

Jotun's powers are a different story altogether. Throw is truly unique in that it can be willfully used as a weapon against opponents or a utility which allows your own non-flyers to access out-of-reach places. Granted, in competitive play you won't often come across such situation, but scenarios can really take advantage of it. Wild Swing is alone among other special attacks in that it's the only four-dice explosion attack (albeit a melee one). Its ability to spread wounds around is close to, but not on par with, the Hydra's four attacks.

Stats-wise, I go with Jotun, but when properly protected the Hydra's four attacks decide this one for me.

2. Playability - Jotun's cost certainly makes him prohibitive in a 'standard' constructed environment, but when drafting he becomes more viable; I'm just not sure that I couldn't find a better way to use 225 points. Unfortunately for the Green Giant, he lacks any manner of synergy, so his role is most always that of ridiculously-muscled shark, lacking any obvious pairings.

The Fen Hydra is more than 100 points cheaper, and while his direct and gameplay synergies are few, he has them. Reach allows you to take advantage of a screen (rats, duh!), and being an Utgar hero gives him a place in Ornak's rolodex. There's nothing quite like using two of these guys on OM #1!

I'm going Hydra here.

3. Overall Usefulness - Most of what I would put here I also addressed in #2. The only real difference to me might be that Jotun can reach out and smack enemies on higher spots, and he's a better glyph holder. Still, I go with the Hydra.

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head - I'm not sure I've taken these two against each other enough times to judge it based on experience, so I employed the matchup calculator. Jotun takes it 75% of the time! Didn't see that big of a spread coming!

5. Army Builds - Again the Hydra fit well within armies which use rat-screens, and Ornak allows it to fit into a few other Utgar-specific armies. Jotun's cost is so prohibitive that his options for allies are quite limited. Also, outside of scenario play, his uses aren't much more diverse than the Hydra. Advantage, Hydra.

6. Best Strategic Use - When saved for the late-game, Jotun is a heck of a clean-up figure, whereas the Hydra has a bit more to fear for camped ranged figures. On the other hand, the Hydra is a terrifying menace to your foes when he can quickly close on them in the early game. Jotun will quickly fall against 4-man bonding melee squads (if they're not bunched up), but with the first strike, the Hydra can shred them. Also, the Hydra can chew through some screens while hiding behind his own. Neither particularly enjoys fighting the 4th or 10th. Slight edge to the Hydra.

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl - I've had both of the guys on either side in the River of Blood campaign and/or Ancient Sanctum campaigns (not to mention a couple of my own custom dungeons). Both are cripplingly dominating foes against an all-hero adventuring party (just ask the poor soles in the Road to the Underdark scenario), but squads can kill them without a great amount of trouble. As part of the adventuring party, however, Jotun is incredible. He marches through most foes, and he'll almost always survive a second-wind roll. I'll go with Jotun for this one.

Fen Hydra takes this 5-2 in my book!

[marrowick]

Oh I wish I had known there was already something like this. A whole thread and about 20 minutes of my time wasted . Well I think as I said in the thread that I made I think the Fen Hydra is the better fighter. Sorry for not checking this first.

[Unhinged Manchild]

Hydra, plain and simple.

1. Stats/Special Powers
Jotun with his monster 8 attack is something that can hardly be matched, and his 7 life is really nice. Jotun's abilities are fun to use, but what really tips the scale in the hydra's favor is the ability to attack up to 4 times when he is at full health, and reach can help make sure you get to use those attacks

2. Playability
Jotun costs a butt load. Hydra is just easier to fit into an army.

3. Overall Usefulness
It's pretty close here, IMO. Hydra seems pretty good at hero and squad killing, plus he (or they?) have synergy with ornak. Jotun can wreck heroes, and at least has wild swing (SA, which the hydra lacks) for groups of figures too.

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head
Unsure, but I would guess the odds are in Jotun's favor (considering his point cost, I would hope so!)

5. Army Builds
I don't really know any really awesome builds for Jotun... but hydra has ornak, kelda, rats... maybe more that I'm not thinking of right now...

6. Best Strategic Use
I do like Jotun because he is big, mean, and green. He will probably be the most intimidating thing in any army that he is in, at least between the 400-600 point range, so lots of mind games with him. But I think the hydra wins here again mostly because of synergies... two hydras (hydrae?) and ornak is pretty fun

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl
I've never done a dungeon crawl... my guess is that they would be pretty even though, maybe slight favor to hydra for multi attacking

[AMIS]

1. Stats/Special Powers
I think the all powerful 8 attack even when down to 1 life left is far more potent than the 4 attack when down to 1 life left (and getting there quicker as well). Although the 4 attack of four when at full life is sweet - I still have to give the edge to Jotun. - Jotun

2. Playability
Jotun is just to cost prohibative. - Hydra

3. Overall Usefulness
Very close and I may even say a tie IMHO. Jotun can crush all who oppose but Hydra can bite a lot more enemies and can physically fit into places Jotun can't. - Hydra.

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head
Jotun - don't be ridiculous!

5. Army Builds
You build armies around Jotun but Hydra you can fit the Hydra into quite a few builds. I prefer building armies around one main figure - Jotun

6. Best Strategic Use
Hydra is great against swarms. Jotun is great against them all - Jotun.

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl
Can Jotun even fit into a dungeon?!? Hydra is better but mostly just for cost.

Jotun Wins for me.

[Sir Dendrik]

I'm going to compare the two without considering their respective costs. Obviously the Hydra trashes Jotun in terms of usefulness.

1. Stats/Special Powers
Jotun has a very nice survivability but I'd generally prefer the Hydra. Jotun suffers from only having 1 attack, making him rentsy against squads. The Hydra doesn't have that problem, but its heads die. Hydra.

2. Playability
In the squad heavy games that usually go on Jotun gets toasted. The Hydra almost always has an impressive showing. Hydra.

3. Overall Usefulness
Throw and 8 attack are what Jotun has. Throw is too unreliable and 8 attack is overkill against he usual squads. Hydra is fantastic in general. Hydra.

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head
Jotun. Hero killer.

5. Army Builds
Hydra is well supported by rats and can become a screen himself once he's damaged. Jotun has next to no synergy. Hydra.

6. Best Strategic Use
Hydra's got a lot going for it in terms of strategery. Jotun has some tech uses throwing guys up but mostly he fills his niche as an anti-hero figure. Hydra.

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl
Jotun. Throw suddenly becomes useful. There's a lot of uncommon heroes to kill.

[The_X_Marker]

I feel like this is a bad debate. The massive gap in point values hurts Jotun.
Id have liked to see Q10 vs Fen Hydra. That said:

1. Stats/Special Powers

Looking at them, statwise, Jotun takes it, cleanly. Jotun has higher life, move, and attack.

Special powerswise, Fen Hydra takes it, closely. Both can function as Hero or Squad killers, Jotun, with his normal attack, and Wild Swing. The hydra with its reach and ability to attack with 4 attacks of 4, and reach.

The loss is to Jotun, though, only because Wild Swing has a relatively small area of use, and can be much easier avoided.

HYDRA-1

2. Playability

The points say it all. Along with part 1, the Hydra is just better. It also has far more synergy.

HYDRA-2

3. Overall Usefulness

see Points 1 and 2. Hydra is just way better for its point value.

HYDRA-3

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

The calculator puts Jotun at around 75% chance of winning. He costs 105 more points though, and I feel that at equal point values, the Hydras would win.

Sadly for the hydra, this isn't a question of equal points.

JOTUN-1

5. Army Builds

The hydra has every build that everyone else listed. Jotun has a huge target on his back, from his size, and falls to ranged early. He also lacks many key synergies.

HYDRA-4

6. Best Strategic Use

There is no strategy for the Hydra, really. It has an army that makes it work. Use Ornak to activate it, or use rats to screen it. The army makes the hydra easy.

Jotun has strategy. If you misuse him, he will die easily. Also, throw strategies, such as helping your units cross rivers, or get onto walls, or throw an enemy into a Nakita.

JOTUN-2

7. Best in Dungeon Crawl

I do not do dungeon crawls, but I'll assume that they're equal.

TIE-1

HYDRA-4
JOTUN-2
TIE-1

Hydra gets my vote.

[Smithy Winfred]

I like the Hydra a lot, but you can't forget Jotuns other powers, one of which allows him to target over 4 figures with a four attack. Also, Throw can be another useful power especially in Lava and Ice maps where he can use it to give an opponent unfavorable terrain or even destroy them in a lava tile.

So b/c of a cheaper price tag, I'd probably give it to the Hydra, but Jotun still has many uses on his own.

[Fireshadow]

1 Hydra wins because jotuns attack is just overkill against all but the strongest, and it is not that hard to get away from him when he comes. Throw is cool and all,but only works 30% of the time. Hydra however has just the amount of attack he needs to kill most squads, and reach ensures he gets most if not all attacks in
2 Hydra wins playability- Jotun will not have very much use in a game where almost everyone goes cheap, simply he costs an arm and a leg for that big 8, while two hydras, worth almost the same would do way more damage
3 hydra- point value and being a better rounded figure puts him in the lead
4 Jotun will knock the pants off of the Hydra story told
5 hydra wins bc of ornak
6 Both can take out their targets with ease, but attacks per OM win on this one bc jotun can end up only killing one cheap fig a turn if he gets tied down
7 sadly I am a newb that does not know what dungeon crawls r but, due to survivability for point value I go hydra
Hydra FTW

[Marro_Warlord]

Jotun costs too much. 'Nuff said.

Otherwise:
1. Hydra takes the cake with Hydra heads ability. Mutiple attacks? Awesome!

2. Hydra wins again, because Jotun costs too much, and cannot survive much.

3. I dunno. Hydra can massacre squads, but Jotun can do the " JOTUN SMASH!" It boils down to this: Hero killer (Jotun) or squad killer (Hydra).

4. Jotun, by a small margin. Jotun could kill the Hydra fast, but the Hydra could hit multiple times. It comes down to who wins initative.

5. Hydra, just because it costs less.

6. Jotun, because he can kill heroes - or bunched up squads.

7. Jotun would make an awesome final or near-end boss!

Winner: Hydra