Shurrak attack timing question

[Dumb Dwarf]

First off, I understand that in order to be affected by the special attack victims have to be adjacent to the Giant, and the target both.

I also understand, that 4 is the accepted max number of victims.

However I have some questions about the timing of abilities, and I can see this argument quickly developing at some gaming tables.

In the extremely rare circumstance that your opponent lines up his figures like this... S S being Shurrak a-e being different small and medium figures, and that b is the target of Sweeping Sword.

a b c
S S
d e

Assuming that the attacking player chooses the order that multiple targets roll defense. Shurrak hits a, then c, then b.
Assuming that b survives, and Shurrak successful rolls for Knockback, and places b in such a manner...

a _ c
S S
d e
b

Would d and e now be eligible targets of Sweeping Sword, since they are adjacent to both Shurrak and b.

Yes I am most likely thinking about this too much.

DD

[wriggz]

No.

The Attack effects all figures, Then you move for knockback.

The "Roll one attack for all affect figures" in sweeping sword takes president over the "Move figure imedately" in the knockback, since you do not know if the figure is distroyed until after the attack is finished (and defence dice are rolled).

[rouby44]

Originally Posted by Dumb Dwarf

First off, I understand that in order to be affected by the special attack victims have to be adjacent to the Giant, and the target both.

I also understand, that 4 is the accepted max number of victims.

However I have some questions about the timing of abilities, and I can see this argument quickly developing at some gaming tables.

In the extremely rare circumstance that your opponent lines up his figures like this... S S being Shurrak a-e being different small and medium figures, and that b is the target of Sweeping Sword.

a b c
S S
d e

Assuming that the attacking player chooses the order that multiple targets roll defense. Shurrak hits a, then c, then b.
Assuming that b survives, and Shurrak successful rolls for Knockback, and places b in such a manner...

a _ c
S S
d e
b

Would d and e now be eligible targets of Sweeping Sword, since they are adjacent to both Shurrak and b.

Yes I am most likely thinking about this too much.

DD

Not that my input has any official weight, but I would have to say no, d and e are not eligible targets. Since they are not adjacent to Shurrok and the chosen figure at the time the target is chosen they are never eligible.

You do have a good case, though. Since defending figures roll defense dice separately (i.e., sequentially) against Shurrok's special attack and since Knockback 14 occurs immediately after defending, figures can be knocked back during Shurrok's attack phase, and so they can ultimately meet the requirements for being affected. The question is whether they must meet those requirements at the moment a figure is chosen as the target or not.

[rouby44]

Originally Posted by wriggz

The Attack effects all figures, Then you move for knockback.

I have to disagree here. Knockback 14 says to use the power immediately after a figure that was attacked rolls defense dice and is not destroyed. That can happen before every figure affected by Sweeping Sword Special Attack rolls defense dice.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by rouby44

I have to disagree here. Knockback 14 says to use the power immediately after a figure that was attacked rolls defense dice and is not destroyed. That can happen before every figure affected by Sweeping Sword Special Attack rolls defense dice.

I would have to disagree since it is only decided after the defence dice are rolled (if the figure is not destroyed). That cannot be decided until Shurrak finished his attack. Thus you would have to roll a second attack after the defense dice was rolled.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by rouby44

I have to disagree here. Knockback 14 says to use the power immediately after a figure that was attacked rolls defense dice and is not destroyed. That can happen before every figure affected by Sweeping Sword Special Attack rolls defense dice.

I would disagree since it is only decided after the defence dice are rolled (if the figure is not destroyed). That cannot be decided until Shurrak finished his attack. Thus you would have to roll a second attack after the defense dice was rolled.

(double post due to poor wording and hitting wrong button)

[rouby44]

Originally Posted by wriggz

I would have to disagree since it is only decided after the defence dice are rolled (if the figure is not destroyed). That cannot be decided until Shurrak finished his attack. Thus you would have to roll a second attack after the defense dice was rolled.

1. Shurrak rolls attack dice for Sweeping Sword.
2. First affected figure rolls defense dice.
3. Knockback 14 immediately occurs if the first figure is not destroyed after having rolled defense dice.
4. Next figure affected rolls defense dice.
5. Roll for Knockback 14 for the second affected figure.
6. etc. etc.

Based solely on the text of Shurrak's powers, I don't see how it could be any other way.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by rouby44

1. Shurrak rolls attack dice for Sweeping Sword.
2. First affected figure rolls defense dice.
3. Knockback 14 immediately occurs if the first figure is not destroyed after having rolled defense dice.
4. Next figure affected rolls defense dice.
5. Roll for Knockback 14 for the second affected figure.
6. etc. etc.

Based solely on the text of Shurrak's powers, I don't see how it could be any other way.

Ah yes, but effected figures were determined at step 1 when the attack was lanched. You would be adding effected figures at a later stage which is not in the wordings.

The movement is being triggered by not being destoryed which does not occur until after the attack is completed.

[rouby44]

Originally Posted by wriggz

Ah yes, but effected figures were determined at step 1 when the attack was lanched. You would be adding effected figures at a later stage which is not in the wordings.

I'm not referring to the original scenario anymore. I'm just talking about the question of when to roll for Knockback 14 - after each consecutive defense dice roll or after all figures affected by Sweeping Sword have rolled defense dice. I think the correct way is the former.

I agree with you that only figures that are adjacent to Shurrak and his chosen target at the moment his target is selected may be affected by Sweeping Sword Special Attack.

[BurnyFlame]

The question is whether or not figures can move into or out of "affected" spaces, correct? For sure, Knockback can occur before all figures have rolled defense because it says "immediately" and the defenses are rolled sequentially. The precedent would be the Tul-Bak-Ra case where he can Teleport Reinforcements. I believe that the "ruling" is:

- TELEPORT REINFORCEMENTS: & Area-Attacks:
Q. If Tul-Bak-Ra receives one or more wounds from an area-attack (Such as Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan's SHOTGUN BLAST SPECIAL ATTACK), and takes advantage of TELEPORT REINFORCEMENTS, are the teleported figures also then affected by the area-attack?
A. No. The teleported figure would not be affected by the attack.
Targetting is decided prior to actual die-rolling or anything that comes after, including the re-positioning of figures by a power like Teleport Reinforcements, which cannot change which figures are affected by the attack.

The only way that one could see it differently is because Shurrak's power uses the word "immediately," which usually takes precedence over all else. I, for one, do take "immediately" to overrule it, and would allow such a move to affect figures "D" and "E" in Dumb Dwarf's initial example.

[dok]

This is pretty similar to a wave 9 question: if you hit a divider with an explosion attack, and it divides, does the new divider get hit with the explosion attack?

This also came up with Tandros's cleave - can he it a figure that has scattered away?

The same answer applies in all cases - once you determine the targeted figures and throw the dice, they don't change. New divider is safe, Tandros's cleave hits the scattering rat, and Shurrak's sweeping sword doesn't get new targets thanks to knockback.

[NecroBlade]

Well said, dok.