Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by Darkmage7a

However this does open a rather distasful can of worms. What defines a good map becomes a dynamic concept.

Individuals define what a good map is for themselves. Humans are dynamic. Our point of view changes with every moment of life that we experience. It is not surprising at all and completely unavoidable that what defines a good map is dynamic. I'm not sure how this is a "distasteful can of worms", as you put it. I think that it is actually the opposite. What if our opinions and ideas didn't evolve? What if the game was mired in stagnation? What if maps couldn't be improved upon?

All of those posibilities seem more distasteful to me.

Does that mean older maps are not as playable as they once were?

Nope, it means they represent the best maps for their era of map making. Every map built represents what the map maker wants to play on based on the current game. As the game and tournament scene change, map styles change.

Older maps represent a style of play present in previous tournaments. These are classic play styles and every new map concept is rooted in these.

How high are the standards for new maps right now?

As high as they need to be. It's a purely subjective matter, as is the entire BoV process. Every judge has a certain bar that a given map needs to pass.

What will they be like in th future?

They will continue to get higher. As each map maker creates a new and unique map, the bar gets raised. This is the nature of creative ventures like this. The artists need to evolve and create original works to keep advancing the art.

I find it a bit troubling to see that there really hasn't been much success for maps that only use 1 ROtV set. That seems unfortunate since it is the most common set tournament organizers have access to. Even a few friends getting together usually have a good number of that set bewtween them. I'd like to help out the little guys who don't have access to everything. Heck I don't even own a tundra set.

Well, this is due to the current climate of the tournament scene. Right now, there is a premium on LOS blockers and melee friendly maps. With the obvious lack of LOS blockers in the main set, it is to be expected that there would be a general lack of single master set maps in the BoV.

Anyway, the BoV is and always had been a very select group to get into. The judges are trying to uphold the standard and ensure that all new additions continue the tradition. Being declined by the BoV isn't meant to be any sort of "rejection". It's just a necessary byproduct of ensuring that getting into the BoV is still an honor.

[Darkmage7a]

Sorry if I offended you Dignan, or anyone else for that matter. Perhaps I chose my word poorly, but it seems to me that we agree on more things than we disagree.

As we both said "everything is dynamic". What is unfortunate about that is that the great maps of today will eventually become sub-par, possibly not even playable. One day we may find ourselves playing strictly 30 hex start zones, who knows. I was trying to draw a point on the lack of accepted maps for a single master set RoTV without expansions.
And your right that the shortage

is due to the current climate of the tournament scene.

In fact, all of the maps in the BOV were always designed and accepted with the current tournament scene in mind. The thing is after "current" is no longer "current" you may end up with maps that were accepted before that wouldn't be accepted anymore. That is a can of worms that is very sad indeed.

The other part of that equation that I was trying to allude to is that it will steadily become more difficult to design a map with the complexities required to keep up with the game if it the bar is continually raised. That now that isn't really meant to be taken literally. As we agreed everything is dynamic and eventually what goes up will come down. But the thing is you have to admit, it is rather obvious that building a good map requires at least one expansion if not more. Which is fine when your talking design, greater complexity can yield great results. but when your talking about the average group of kids trying to play a game that doesn't have more than one or two master sets and hardly any terrain expansions available at their local store it isn't a matter of design anymore it's a matter of practicality.

It's possible that perhaps this isn't the best place to discuss this as practicality and availability of materials may not be on the major concerns list for tournament organizers who tend to have access to numerous supplies.

Please don't think this has anything to do with accepting my entry, I like the map but I was never expecting the 1st map I submit for review to be accepted. Although I wouldn't ask the judges to waste their time on it if I didn't think it as worth a look. The BoV has excellent standards formed by numerous judges with a diverse range of opinions and ideas. The accepted maps have survived many challenges and they deserve their places of honor. Don't take my preference for split start zones as anything offensive. It just seems to me as the newest evolution in map design. One you have begun to champion Dignan.

ps: Has Striking Distance ever been nominated for review?

[ProtoFury]

I like the look of tht map, but it doesn't seem to be too double-spaced friendly... As an avid Marrden Hounds user, that's a big turn-off for me.

Just sayin.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by Darkmage7a

Sorry if I offended you Dignan, or anyone else for that matter. Perhaps I chose my word poorly, but it seems to me that we agree on more things than we disagree.

I wasn't offended, just expressing a different viewpoint.

As we both said "everything is dynamic". What is unfortunate about that is that the great maps of today will eventually become sub-par, possibly not even playable.

Well, this is a possibility. But I think that great maps will take a long time before they are unplayable. Highways and Dieways is the prime example of a great "old" map that I doubt will ever be "unplayable" or even "sub-par". I would expect the game to die out before enough time would pass to have the game change to that extent.

While it might be seen as unfortunate that older maps we once thought were good now become sub-par, I see it from the other angle. Maps today have gotten so good that they make older maps diminish. Personally, I find that my older maps are inferior to the ones that I have designed more recently. And I think that's a good thing.

But the thing is you have to admit, it is rather obvious that building a good map requires at least one expansion if not more.

I wouldn't concede that point. I love Common Ground and voted to have it inducted into the BoV. I think it is a great example of a single MS maps that is great for today's tournament scene. However, it is rare and the exception doesn't prove the rule. It is difficult to build a good map with only 1 master set, but a terrain expansion is not required.

Which is fine when your talking design, greater complexity can yield great results. but when your talking about the average group of kids trying to play a game that doesn't have more than one or two master sets and hardly any terrain expansions available at their local store it isn't a matter of design anymore it's a matter of practicality.

The BoV isn't really set up for the average bunch of kids just messing around. It's goal is to find a great selection of balanced maps that tournament directors can use. I think there are plenty of maps that a group of kids without terrain expansions can have fun with, but I doubt they'd be looking to run a tournament, and hence the BoV might not be the best place for them to dig.

Don't take my preference for split start zones as anything offensive. It just seems to me as the newest evolution in map design. One you have begun to champion Dignan.

I think that we have seen a nice evolution in what constitutes a start zone. Several new maps have introduced a refreshing look at army deployment. However, it is a new aspect in this community's designs and it takes time to master. All over this site there are various levels and success and failure with split and "different" start zones.

ps: Has Striking Distance ever been nominated for review?

Nope. It's been used in a handful of tournaments, but never nominated.

[Dignan]

Logged MM votes: Inner Courtyard YtR, Stone's Throw NtR
Logged Dignan votes: Swamp Helix YtR, Stone's Throw NtR
Logged nyys votes: Inner Courtyard YtR, Swamp Gas YtR
Added Swamp Helix to Pending
Added Stone's Throw to Pending

Updated 10/26/09

Maps pending acceptance for review:

Graveyard of the Lost Souls by Creationist
YES = 3 (Dignan, Kahrma, Longheroscaper); NO = 2 (Matthias Maccabeus, nyys); Pending = 1 (Bunjee)

Healing Waters by GameBear
YES = 2 (Longheroscaper, Matthias Maccabeus); NO = 2 (Dignan, nyys); Pending = 2 (Bunjee, Kahrma)

Kyrien Quarry by White Noise
YES = 2 (Dignan, nyys); NO = 2(Longheroscaper, Matthias Maccabeus); Pending = 2 (Bunjee, Kahrma)

Vadmont's Tomb by ProtoFury
YES = 3 (Dignan, Mathias Maccabeus, nyys); NO = 0 ; Pending = 3 (Bunjee, Kahrma, Longheroscaper)

Paved Paradise by Sup3rs0n1c
YES = 3 (Dignan, nyys, Matthias Maccabeus); NO = 0 ; Pending = 3 (Bunjee, Kahrma, Longheroscaper)

Inner Courtyard by KCU Master 2007
YES = 3 (Dignan, Mathias Maccabeus, nyys); NO = 0 ; Pending = 3 (Bunjee, Kahrma, Longheroscaper)

Feylund Fountain by Velenne
YES = 3 (Dignan, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys); NO = 0 ; Pending = 5 (Bunjee, Kahrma, Longheroscaper)

Swamp Gas by Mad Wookie
YES = 3 (Dignan, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys); NO = 0 ; Pending = 3 (Bunjee, Kahrma, Longheroscaper)

Swamp Helix by dok
YES = 1 (Dignan); NO = 0 ; Pending = 5 (Bunjee, Kahrma, Longheroscaper, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys)

Stone's Throw by Darkmage7a
YES = 0; NO = 2 (Dignan, Matthias Maccabeus) ; Pending = 2 (Bunjee, Kahrma, Longheroscaper, nyys)

Maps currently being reviewed:

Invasion by LongHeroscaper
YES = 3 (Dignan, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys); NO = 1 (Kahrma); Pending = 1 (Bunjee)
*LongHeroscaper removed from review process per map creator

[nyys]

Stone's Throw by Darkmage7a

Studying this map gave me a bit of a mind cramp (a good thing in this case). With the close proximity of the start zones there are a lot of decisions that need to be made both quickly and correctly. One bad move could spell the game for you. I love this map.

That said, for a tournament setting (at least a 'normal' tournament) I don't think we're ready for something this radical.

Just looking over the 'A Units' there is a lot of damage that can be done quickly and decisively.

Zelrig can reach every hex in one OM. The 4th/10th, can move, take height and stay in Raelin's aura. Gladiatrons can lock someone down with just one round of movement. Q9 can take the highest point on the map in one turn and rain fire for the rest of the game. Then you have the rats who can circle a pocket of units in one round and potentially not allow the enemy through... ever.

Basically take any 'A Unit' and amplify their abilities 10 fold. Some of this is mitigated though due to the small foot print. Run Zelrig out there, and he's going to be in for a world of hurt (probably won't make it out of round 1). The 4th? Sure take height, my Knights will be there in two OMs to cut you down. Stingers? If you're close enough to hit me, them I'm close enough to hit back.

But it's really the rats that do the map in for me. In one round of OMs you could circle Q9 with two rows of rats and basically assure that a melee army will never reach him, or at least not until it's too late. That goes for any strong ranged unit. The Rats are easily the most used unit at tourneys (top 5 at worst), and they'll have a field day on this map.

The Rats are strong on just about any map, but I think this one amplifies their strength too much.

I still love this map though, and I'm definitely keeping it in mind for the Scenario Tournament that I want to run at some point.

But for now I vote NO to review.

[Darkmage7a]

We'll said Nyys,
Thank you for taking the time to carefully consider an analyze the map. Perhaps someday rats and Q9 will be the least of our fears. I still enjoy it and I'm glad to hear you do too.

Cheers to the BOV and the evolution of the game!

[ProtoFury]

I'm considering nominating a map by rednax that I've had some great games on, shoul that wait until there's a little less on the plate of those who have yet to vote?

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by ProtoFury

I'm considering nominating a map by rednax that I've had some great games on, shoul that wait until there's a little less on the plate of those who have yet to vote?

Feel free to nominate it and get it in the que. We promise that we will get to all the maps as quickly as we can. These kinds of backups happen from time to time. If you nominate it now, it at least have it's place in line "saved"

[rednax]

Originally Posted by ProtoFury

I'm considering nominating a map by rednax that I've had some great games on, shoul that wait until there's a little less on the plate of those who have yet to vote?

Could I ask which map, considering it's mine? Feel free to post here, or PM me, but I think I deserve to know!

Edit: Never mind, checked my map thread, and saw your post. Thank you Proto. I would have nominated one of your maps, but you already have one up for nomination here. It means a lot that you have time to playtest, especially considering I'm pretty new to the site (you're pretty new too, but still). I didn't even know you were playing on my maps!

[Warlord Alpha]

Originally Posted by rednax

Could I ask which map, considering it's mine? Feel free to post here, or PM me, but I think I deserve to know!

No, you are going to get kept in suspense. It's more fun that way. Proto gets double bonus points if you lose sleep.

Edit: aww, you edited your post. In light of what Dignan said I guess it is safe to assume Proto will be nominating it next time he gets on. I think it's a pretty cool looking map but I don't have jungle terrain so I can't comment too much on it.

[RoninValentina]

Well, I was gonna wait awhile with things like they are, but if Dignan says pile it on, well... alright.



I'd like to submit my map - Rift Valley for BoV review. I've spent a lot of time on this one, and I didn't receive any negative feedback about it after NHSD, so here it is. I'm pretty shore it's an unrepresented combination of terrain types, its got a smaller footprint for melee friendliness, and there aren't really places to turtle for more than a round or so. Looking forward to your thoughts, Judges.