Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[wriggz]

It is not uncommon for editing to review power names for reuseablity. I think there has been power name changes in the past to help a unit fit in better with canon.

[Vydar_XLIII]

Regarding Agrith-Naar, after taking some time to go through and familiarize myself with previous iterations, I'm voting YES to review.

I don't necessarily share Vegie's philosophical view on how Whirlwind should be handled, but every one of the concerns he raises is valid. 5 attack Whirlwind can be devastating and can define the play from both sides. Starved as a drawback ability is really minimized by the Acolytes ability to summon their Demons directly into the fray. I'd need to get him on my table to fully assess.

[Scytale]

Agrith-Naar has received 5 Yea votes to review (wriggz, Dysole, Scytale, superfrog, and Vydar_XLIII) and moves forward in the process.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Shadow Stalker by @Sir Heroscape
Shadow Wraith by @Sir Heroscape

Is it a shadow that stalks? Or does it stalk shadows? Perhaps we'll never know...

Oh, and insert obligatory comment about a wraith here too.

First things first

I'm just going to start by ripping off the band-aid and saying that the Stalker isn't going to make it for me. I think that at this point many players are familiar with the Azazel + Xundar + Shadows army. It's strong and, even worse, extremely annoying. I tested the Stalker in this army first off since that was definitely the biggest concern, and a few games in it became obvious that it pushed that army too far. I do like the idea of a defensive shadow figure like the Stalker, but I cut its testing short because its boost to the AX Shadows army was too much for me.

I vote Nay to induct Shadow Stalker into the Soldiers of Valhalla.

With that, the rest of this review will focus on the Shadow Wraith.

Balance

Obviously the best comparison for defense-boosting figures is going to be Raelin (RotV, naturally). The Shadow Wraith is just under 1/3 of Raelin's point cost, which sets a bar for us. Their offense is the same at 3 attack each, but the Wraith is much more fragile with only 1L/2D compared to Raelin's 5L/3D, not quite 1/3 of the value there. For mobility, Raelin has the edge with 6 move flying, but the Wraith isn't shirking too much with Shadow Phase and Phantom Walk. But the Wraith is already in the hole with this comparison, so let's look at the auras. Raelin gives 2 defense to any figure you control in 4 spaces, while the Wraith gives 1 defense (1/2 value, not bad) to adjacent figures (1/10 value, less good) that are Shadows (value is tough to judge, but if we're looking game-wide for army-building potential I'll put that at 1/100). Obviously, we can easily see that the Wraith is underpowered, which probably means another downvote here...

Okay, Shadow Trolling aside, the Wraith does seem to be at an okay place with balance. It has strong mobility for the points (as long as you have other Shadows around, which you should), and decent offense for a defensive figure. But it's very fragile at 1L/2D, so it's not like you're just jumping and attacking anywhere with it. If anything, while building armies with the Wraith it seemed a touch on the weak side compared to the other shadow options I had.

Theme

The mini is a purple ghosty thing. The card is a shadow (because purple) ghosty thing. And it makes shadows stronger for its shadow allies. Not much more to say, but it definitely works, and simple is never a bad thing.

Creativity

Again, I do like the addition of more defensive figures to the shadow faction. The Binder was okay as a disruptor, but when testing the figures the first go around I always preferred more Hounds or Fiends as the points would allow. Having a defense-booster in the mix opens up what kinds of armies you can build, which I liked.

Playability

The Shadow Wraith does an alright job as a defensive piece for the shadows. With only 2 defense, you're not expecting it to take much focused fire before falling, but there's a decent amount that you can do with it until then. Hiding it out of range or behind an obstacle helps keep it alive and makes your opponent decide whether to go out of their way to attack it or go for the more-accessible shadows that it's boosting instead. The Shadow Phase power gives it some fun mobility too, and if it survives ranged attacks it can make a good part of a front wave as you start attacking with Hounds and Fiends. Again, its not going to survive long in that wave, but its other purpose aside from boosting defense is to draw fire, since even if it's an easy kill that's an attack made on a weaker part of your army and not on the core doggies/demons that come with it. At the end of the day, it's not a build-around piece for the shadow army like Hounds and Fiends, but its a 25-50 point filler for them, so you're not expecting it to be built around anyway.

What about armies with Azazel? Eh. Having Wraiths certainly doesn't hurt that army much, but it's not as much of a help with their 2 defense. Oh wait, that becomes 3 defense with other Wraiths! Yeah... you can get a natural 4 defense with Hounds and Binders, so some Wraiths to support isn't bad, but you probably shouldn't go full Wraiths (or maybe you should so your opponent feels better).

Summary

I went into my games with the Wraith almost expecting to downvote it for being too low on the power scale and not worth drafting. In my games, though, I found it to be a nice, versatile addition to the Shadow Faction. Yes, with only two defense it becomes an easy target, and I probably would have switched its attack and defense, but there were a lot of positioning plays that could be made with it to try to throw off an opponent. Using it as bait or even a surprise offensive piece with its decent attack was always satisfying.

I vote Yea to induct Shadow Wraith into the Soldiers of Valhalla.

[Scytale]

The Shadow Stalker by @Sir Heroscape has received 2 Nay votes to induct (Scytale and BiggaBullfrog) and is removed from the process.

[superfrog]

Great reviews, fellow frog!

[Leaf_It]

I would like to resubmit the Drow Assassin


text version of card:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = DROW ASSASSIN
GENERAL = UTGAR
PLANET = TORIL
SPECIES = DROW
UNIQUENESS = COMMON HERO
CLASS = ASSASSSIN
PERSONALITY = TRICKY
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

1 LIFE
6 MOVE
1 RANGE
4 ATTACK
2 DEFENSE
25 POINTS

Shadow Shift
Before or after moving a Drow Assassin, you may choose a friendly Drow figure within 4 spaces, whose base is no more than 9 levels higher or lower than the base of the Drow Assassin. You may Switch her with the chosen figure. Figures moved by Shadow Shift never take any leaving engagement attacks.

Drow Ambush
After revealing an order marker on, and taking a turn with a common Drow Army Card that you control, you may reveal the X order marker on this card to take a turn with a Drow Assassin that you control that has not moved or attacked since the last numbered order marker was revealed. During this turn, add 1 to the Attack value of this card.

Hide in Darkness
If a Drow Assassin is attacked with a normal attack and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die. If that Drow Assassin is on a dungeon space, add 3 to your die roll. If it is on a shadow space, add 6 to your die roll. If you roll a 1-15, roll defense dice normally. If you roll a 16 or higher, ignore all damage that would have been inflicted by the attack.

Figure used is Lolth's Sting #53, and Lolth's Sting '05 Gameday Promo

Changes from last time are basically just the changes I said I would make in this post. Those changes are:
• Lower Shadow Shift's range to 4 spaces, down from 5.
• Add the following stipulation to Drow Ambush "that has not moved or attacked since the last order marker was revealed", preventing a single Assassin from triggering itself, but still allowing multiple Assassins to trigger each other.
• Lower the Attack buff from Drow Ambush to +1, down from +2.

I believe these have addressed all of the concerns that were raised by superfrog in his review, while maintaining the gameplay that I was hoping to create with this design.

[wriggz]

Despite the presence of "reveal order makers" wording on Estivara card it still feels clunky. I feel simply excluding assassins would be simpler and more thematic.

That said there are lots of clunky powers and I like me some Drow love, so I vote yes to review

[Shiftrex]

I would like to nominate a miniature worked on by quite a few people over the years, a Green Wyrmling that originates from this thread. It has been workshopped, theoryscapped, and playtested by some great people in the community. Not to mention, it is a lot of fun to have another wyrmling. I want to nominate the most recent version that was seen in the thread seen in the quotation below, I threw together a card for it. I would like to suggest this miniature for it, printed at uncommon rarity.

The original post in the linked thread spells out the goals for the project and there is great discussion about the unit both on the board, and on discord.

Planet: Icaria
Personality: Valiant

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 35

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
For each excess shield a Green Wyrmling rolls when defending against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, roll an unblockable attack die against the attacking figure.

WYRMLING BONDING

FLYING

Balance - There are quite a few playtests on this miniature. It is also one that I have enjoyed personally for my wyrmling builds. The statline is not overpowering for melee, even putting them in the all valiant 4th Mass build or pairing them with Raelin. The main reason why is that fledging counterstrike is only a 50/50 for wounding a figure, they are honestly less imposing than their special attacking counterparts. I've not had any crazy performances from them, you can position them well because they can fly and they have flexibility due to being wyrmlings but nothing crazy is happening here mechanically that puts them at an unfair advantage.

They have a stat total that is equal to the White wyrmling (green trades 1 move for 1 attack) so nothing special is happening there either.


Playability - Definitely have enjoyed having a flexible, 4 attack flying unit that can sometimes leverage a defense stat to create static threat (same as the blue wyrmling). It doesn't feel bad to put it into melee due to some perceived bulk with the defense stat and lesser counterstrike.

Creativity - I like the people working on this found a way to have counterstrike without having a 35 point figure high roll some shields and destroy a hero. Counterstrike units usually see mileage against melee commons (or ranged commons if you engage them) because they are one and done. There is an extra step here, once the dragon defends you have to see if it was skilled enough to deal the wound. This constraint makes it so that commons survive 50% of the time when they would die to regular counterstrike. The statline also encourages a player to move it out onto the field, 4 move would feel a lot less worthwhile or useable in most situations even with flying because you are looking for a good normal attack instead of a good special like the other wyrmlings.

This is a different playstyle that can open up some army options that are not present right now even though the blue wyrmling has 4 attack as well. Most of the time you are going to go for a special attack.


Theme - Not much to say here. This is a Tiny Charos, not a tiny green dragon from dnd. The pose is combative and actually reminiscent of Charos itself with wings flared and ready to fight. The theme of Charos is supposed to be a proud King dragon that chooses to fight in melee combat, which some massive stats to back it up. I think that this unit does a good job of conveying the "wyrmling" version of that theme with some great stats, useful physical attack, but he isn't going to be laying the smackdown onto a group of commons like the real thing is. I think this falls in line with the other wyrmlings pretty well. Also, the overwhelming majority of people that I have talked to want a green wyrmling that patterns after Charos, just like the other wyrmlings pattern after the Icaria Dragons.


Accessibility - Not bad, the miniature I am suggesting is hot off the press. The set it is from will be printing for a while (release spring of 2022). It is an uncommon rarity so it won't be hard to find. Quick glance yesterday showed:

Miniature Market: 40
Troll and Toad: 16
Cool stuff Inc: 8
Ebay: 30+

Total: 94

Which is up from when I initially looked last week, would anticipate a stable supply for a while.

Credits:

2020-2022 Green Wyrmling Version

Original Idea:
• Dok

Mechanical/Creative Work:
• Heroscaper2010
• Dok
• Lefton4ya
• NecroBlade

Majority of Playtesting:
• Siege

Feedback/Input:
• Sir Heroscape
• Shiftrex
• DeanielLoche
• Lefton4ya
• Quozl
• Scytale
• Astroking112
• Chris Perkins
• Heroscaper Guy
• UtahScott
• Capsocrates
• Taeblewalker
• Quozl
• Knox
• Tornado
• Greywaves
• TheAverageFan

Late State Guidance and Input:
• Scytale
• Vegietarian18
• Dysole
• Wriggz

[wriggz]

I've seen multiple people have playtested this custom. I'm happy to vote yes to review the green wyrmlings.

[Vydar_XLIII]

Drow Assassin Resubmission: As I said when you withdrew the previous version, I’m glad you made the decision to remove the ability for the Assassin to trigger herself. I’m excited to see if this version hits the sweet spot where she can increase the viability of Deepwyrm armies and not be incredibly abusable on her own or in a small group of 2 or 3.

The new version of Drow Ambush doesn’t work as written. The action of revealing the X order marker makes it so that no figure has moved or attacked since the last order marker has been revealed; therefore, there is in fact no restriction on the Assassin triggering herself. You’d need to change the last phrase of the first sentence to “…since the last numbered order marker was revealed.”

I have to vote to review the Drow Assassin because of the wording of Drow Ambush. The vote reverses if my edit above is made, another change that fixes the issue is made, or if someone on the rules team tells me my interpretation is incorrect and that your wording is fine.

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Side note: Is “order marker” supposed to be capitalized within power text? It isn’t on Estivara and Van Nessing but is on Ornak and Heracles? What is the preferred formatting going forward?

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Green Wyrmling Submission: I’ve intentionally avoided chiming in on the argument regarding the Green Wyrmling. I didn’t think I had much to add to that discussion. But now it looks like I have to take a position. I’m not interested in that argument spilling over into this thread as I think most, if not all, interested parties have already made their mind up on the direction the unit “should” go. Before getting into the specifics of this submission, let me detail my personal position on the matter.

No matter what design direction the Green Wyrmling design ends up going, there are going to be issues with the lore. The mini-Charos from Icaria is going to be the odd Wyrmling out of the group from Eberron. And the poison breath version doesn’t respect the Green dragon we already have. Both have their flaws. I personally land on the side of fledgling Charos but could easily see myself voting up on either one.

This brings us to the submission as designed by the community and nominated by Shiftrex. A fledgling Charos. I already like the direction, I already know that it doesn’t solve every theme problem, the only question left is whether a miniature explicitly of a Green Wyrmling from D&D can depict a small Charos.

Having purchased a few of these minis in anticipation of this submission, the answer is a surprisingly easy yes. D&D Green Dragons are characterized by a large fin that runs from their head all the way down their body. Charos doesn’t have this and it is not prominent on the Wyrmling miniature. The anatomy of Charos and the Wyrmling’s wings are almost identical. The Wyrmling doesn’t have Charos’ horns and is more vibrantly colored, but those can be explained away with age. I can buy it.

I vote to review the Green Wyrmling.

[Scytale]

Vydar is right about the Drow Ambush wording, but I don't expect submitters to be editors. As long as we understand what the intention is, I'm fine testing and leaving the final wording up to Editing. (And, as an Editor, I don't think it's hard to fix.) I'm happy with the other changes. to review the Drow Assassin.

Treating a D&D wyrmling (and this miniature is clearly a D&D wrymling) as an Icarian wyrmling is doing a grave disservice to the D&D area of Heroscape. This isn't the case of some obscure D&D monster or generic human or elf figure repurposed; this design is clearly meant to join the existing Heroscape wrymlings--which are D&D-era creations from D&D worlds. to review.