Workshop Thread

[Sir Heroscape]

Typically you don't want the same glyph on the map. Having 2 Dagmar's in theory allows each player to have it, but if both players have it, then nobody really has a bonus do they? Additionally, if one army is able to control both, then it's an extreme bonus. So I'd suggest a different glyph. The position of the glyphs is also very much to the advantage of the nearby startzone. Typically you won't glyphs equidistant in order to make both contestable and to avoid imbalance for matchups. So I'd suggest trying to move the glyphs back a bit so they're still on the edge but in the center of the edge, if that makes sense?

 

[Joecrazy3193]

My mistake I realised that Dagmar was not what I intended. The Summoning Glyph is what I playtested with. Even with the Summoning Glyph would your statement stand when it comes to having 2 of the Same Glyph as well as to move the glyphs? and if so, i had to move them should I move them adjacent to the height?

 

[AndreThaGiant]

Request for Workshopping:
DRAGON'S TEETH

Spoiler Alert!

Thanks for bringing your map to the workshop!

The general concerns I had with your map (and I think this goes for some of the other judges as well) were as follows:

1) I want to see more dynamic height distribution throughout the map - this creates greater depth and allows for more strategic play because there are more interesting decisions to be made.

2) This critique builds off the first - there is quite a bit of terrain available in the sets you chose that you haven't used. You don't have to use everything, but you have the terrain to add greater depth and variety to your map, so I'd encourage you to do so.

3) The middle of the map looks like it could cause some headaches - there are a few choke points through the middle because of the orientation of the two ruins. With the way the glyphs are positioned (in the middle of the path instead of towards the outside edge), coming through the sides to flank an opponent will be harder - not to mention that a lot of that section is on level 0. This means most of the action is probably going to take place in the middle, and you'll want to make sure the action flows well through that part of the map.


As a few positive notes - I love the shape, and I love the clear and concise start zones. I also really like the over all look of the map, so don't go too crazy in trying to overhaul the whole thing.

Let me know if you'd like further clarification or help! Maybe some other judges will weigh in here too. @Sir Heroscape @Nomad @heroscaper2010

Spoiler Alert!

I second a lot of what Flash pointed out. My issues had to do with:
1) Flatness of the map
2) The edges can be clogged down by 1 figure on a glyph
3) The center is easily clogged up

Specifically for this map, think Rats. Rats break this map mercilessly. You just need a 1 squad to essentially lock up the "clog zones" and if you have a few more, all the better to fill and replace. What's more, it really goes for any army. Even all melee will struggle to combat through those chokepoints. Aesthetically I agree it looks quite good, but it does have some issues on the outset.

Hey gang, first off I want to thank you for taking the time to review my submission. I've made some revisions while still keeping the bones of the map. I'm aware that it's still rather flat, and that there's still a lot of unused terrain, but I want to maintain the frigid aesthetic if possible. Please let me know if you like or dislike any of the changes

 

[Sir Heroscape]

Those changes look significantly better...nothing blaring stands out atm

 

[NecroBlade]

Very cool! I like it.

 

[Sheep]

Is there a hex below the power glyphs?

 

[Sir Heroscape]

Is there a hex below the power glyphs?

Good catch, yeah that looks weird.

 

[AndreThaGiant]

There are ice tiles below the power glyphs, I left them out for the screenshots because the glyphs appear to hover over the half-tiles and it bothers me lol

The ice tiles below still exist in the pdf build. And agreed- good catch!

 

[Sir Heroscape]

My only suggestion (after a little more inspection) would actually be to move the water next to the lvl4 height and switch it with the ice under the glyph. Since glyphs stop movement anyway, water is always good for throwing under a glyph. I think by replacing with ice, you'll allow at lot more freedom of movement for units trying to contest the glyphs from the center, or grabbing them end of round. The only issue is it's hard to traverse that lvl 4 height from the glyphs side....so maybe shift the snow a bit on that lvl 4 to allow somone from the glyph side to be able to get up on level 3 as a way to contest the height.

 

[AndreThaGiant]

My only suggestion (after a little more inspection) would actually be to move the water next to the lvl4 height and switch it with the ice under the glyph. Since glyphs stop movement anyway, water is always good for throwing under a glyph. I think by replacing with ice, you'll allow at lot more freedom of movement for units trying to contest the glyphs from the center, or grabbing them end of round. The only issue is it's hard to traverse that lvl 4 height from the glyphs side....so maybe shift the snow a bit on that lvl 4 to allow somone from the glyph side to be able to get up on level 3 as a way to contest the height.

Awesome feedback. Something like this?

 

[Sir Heroscape]

exactly.

 

[Nomad]

Good observation and a simple fix. The map is looking compelling.

 

[AndreThaGiant]

Hello again friends! I received some great feedback for my ScapeCon II map contest submission, I'm just not sure how/where to apply it. Welcoming recommendations for:

• Placement of the leftover 3 shadow tiles
• Reduction of "plateau" redundancy
• Reduction of "double space denial"

(As well as any other insights that can help improve this map- I think it has good bones)

King in the North

 

[Sir Heroscape]

Honestly...this is an amazing map aesthetically. Sure it's a little bit chokey in certain spots...but you'd have to change quite a bit about the map to open it up more, and then that would take away from what you're trying to do with the theme and aesthetic.

I love the map the way it is tbh. It's probably not the most balanced for the ScapeCon's of the world ...but local tournaments I would definitely include it.

 

[Sir Heroscape]

We're catching up after way too long...

Here are 3 reviews for Durgeth Swamps by @heroscaper2010

Personally, I'm going to here. For reference here was my last review of v.1

I really like this map. It's going to be an for me.

This map is open and the flow is beautiful. The height pockets on the sides really become a focus for range trying to get height attacks, but are by no means an easy position to maintain. Glyphs are well placed allowing height attacks and figures to move around them with ease. I love the quick development out of the startzone and the free moving aspects of this map. This map makes it really hard for armies to cut themselves off, and a pod army almost has to hunker in the middle, which isn't that great of a position anyway. I will say that I was crying for a little more height variation, maybe like a 1-hex or 2-hexer in the middle, but that alone is not enough to give it a downvote. It's got great aspects to it that lend itself to open and free play and I don't see many concerns on this one. I've loved the games I've played on it, and never felt like the map was detracting from gameplay.

I don't have too much to add, other than the changes/updates that were made I do think helped the map overall. I've always liked this map and the improvements are good. I just don't know why it took me so long to remember to review this map!

We performed a total of six play-tests on the original Durgeth Swamps, and I gave a somewhat reluctant thumbs up. This new incantation received even more play-tests. The improvements on this rendition removes the concerns that I previously stated. The map plays solid and meets all of the criteria I consider when selecting tournament maps. I think the glyph placement and slight height of the rock on the edges of the map is solid. The removal of the palm from adjacent height is a plus. Flow across the map and side-to-side is fair with many options - and the central plateau used slightly in the previous version has been changed significantly. The map continues to not favor one type of army build over another. Some might be concerned that the start zones are surrounded by level 0 water. I am not - other quality maps have the same are nearly the same configuration - Ticalla Sunrise, Blackroot, etc. I vote for Durgeth Swamps, revised version.

Durgeth Swamps
I’m going to go with

Basically it boils down to the following:
1) The inverse speed bumps, where units have to drop down to level 0, coming out of the start zone can be a pain (Typhon2222 has requested that these be called speed dumps, and I am happy to comply with his request). There isn’t a single path out of the start zone where units can travel through without having to deal with the giant speed dump. This tends to give established range even more of an advantage against melee units trying to mount a comeback out of the start zone. To the map’s credit, the jungle is plentiful enough and placed well enough so that it’s easy to get boosted defense against ranged attacks from height. However, I don’t feel like this is enough for slow movers facing quicker ranged units.

2) Feedback on a previous version of the map highlighted the power of the 7-hex to the right of the start zone. This version takes that criticism and tries to fix it in the wrong way. That right side coming out of the start zone feels like a mess and is tough to navigate at times with regular water constricting the paths out of the start zone so much. I would look for a different way to solve the power of that 7-hex that doesn’t make that area so difficult to navigate.

3) Some people love where the glyphs are on this map. I am not one of them. I feel like that area is a key area that units need to be able to flow through, and having a glyph there (especially with that single hex adjacent to it) just bogs that area down too much – especially considering that you are forced to stop on glyphs (speaking of which, if any of you want to rise up and house rule that as not being a thing anymore, I will support you).

4) On a map like this, I wouldn’t want jungle covering any of the highest ground.

5) On a game on this map, my opponent rushed back into their start zone on the right side when they saw they were losing. They camped there in that back right corner of the start zone and made me come to them. I was playing melee and had to come down into the speed dump and attack up on their position in the start zone. This strategy almost won my opponent the game (and most likely would have if he’d used one of his units differently). This is another reason I would want at least a couple same level entrances into the start zone that don’t require descending into the level 0 swamp water. Requiring Wannok on the glyph is an okay solution to this kind of problem, but feels like a cheap patch to a problem that has a better solution. As a note – there are other maps that have this same sort of problem with their start zone (see for example, Fen Hydro). While Fen Hydro has part of its start zone functioning as a potentially elevated start zone against melee, it is much more open. With Durgeth Swamps it is much easier to clog and lock down parts of the start zone. I will say however, that testing this map has made me more aware of this problem, and I will be looking for it more in the future.

I appreciate the work you’ve put into this, and the map does look really cool on the table.

Unfortunately...with just 3 active judges...maps require a unanimous vote to induct.

Durgeth Swamps is removed from the process.

 

[Sir Heroscape]

One final vote from Flash on Drider.

So, I made a suggestion for the improvement of the map, and I do think it helps improve the map overall. However, as I've kept playing the map, even with the changes, it feels more and more apparent that the changes aren't enough. I like the map, but I feel like some builds are just too strong - the primary offender is Nilfheim with Greenscales. Once Nilfheim gets situated on that central plateau with some Greenscales screening for him, it's game over. The size of the map just exacerbates the power of that position and the power of Nilfheim/other Dragons on the map.

This map would be top of my list in terms of fun maps that I wouldn't use at a tournament - and honestly, it would work really well for some formats at a tournament - but as much as it pains me, I feel like I need to vote

Unfortunately, with just 3 active judges...maps require a unanimous vote to induct.

Drider is removed from the process.

 

[Ulysses]

One final vote from Flash on Drider.

So, I made a suggestion for the improvement of the map, and I do think it helps improve the map overall. However, as I've kept playing the map, even with the changes, it feels more and more apparent that the changes aren't enough. I like the map, but I feel like some builds are just too strong - the primary offender is Nilfheim with Greenscales. Once Nilfheim gets situated on that central plateau with some Greenscales screening for him, it's game over. The size of the map just exacerbates the power of that position and the power of Nilfheim/other Dragons on the map.

This map would be top of my list in terms of fun maps that I wouldn't use at a tournament - and honestly, it would work really well for some formats at a tournament - but as much as it pains me, I feel like I need to vote

Unfortunately, with just 3 active judges...maps require a unanimous vote to induct.

Drider is removed from the process.

This is completely fair. These days I only put Drider up if I know what specific format we're going for and that is not a great sign for a general tournament map. I really appreciate the second look though and am very grateful for all the time you folks put in. Thanks ARV!