What's in an Order Marker? (D1, D2, and D3 up)

[dok]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

I guess it just depends how big a catch-all you want niche to be. Most of niche is either "figures that are only good as counter-drafts or on specific terrain" or "figures that just plain lack OM efficiency". However, there are at least two other ways figures land in niche that doesn't necessarily mean they're bad figures.

Pseudo-cheerleaders that need activations
Kelda
Saylind
Emirroon
Theracus
Tul-Bak-Ra
Greater Ice Elemental? (sort of a blend of this, a defender, and a cleanup figure)

Figures that mess with your opponent in ways that don't (usually) kill them
Dünd
Major X17
Morsbane
Drow Chainfighter
Wyvern

 

[SgtHulka]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Jexik, thank you for this article. It was a good (though long) read.

If you have the inclination and the time, I'd be curious as to your take on how this all pertains to campaign games. I suppose we only have two "official" campaign games: Swarm of the Marro and Battle of the Underdark, but some unofficial ones have been posted to the maps threads (like Scott's excellent Sunken Crypt) and I've found they play quite differently than the tournament meta-game this article is focused on.

What I've found in campaigns is that one player, the Utgar/Evil/Monster player, has an advantage in unit selection and a disadvantage in points. This player could pretty much use this article verbatim to build a very effective force, swarming the hero player with bread & butter units and menacers.

But the other player, the "hero" player, has an advantage in points and disadvantage in selection. Because this player risks losing his or her figures before finishing the campaign, whether using a "Second Wind" rule or not, this player is largely restricted to "heroes". In an all-hero environment, I suspect many of the rolls change.

For example, as you already mentioned, in classic scape Tandros' abilities make him a defender, while in the Underdark campaign he plays much more as a menacer (hogging the order markers until the sharky Darrak comes into play).

My experience with homebrewed campaign games has taught me that your categories definitely still apply: you need a menacer or bread and butter unit who hogs order markers and can dish out two to three attacks per order marker (though in an all hero environment three attacks are rare), you need a cheerleader (usually a defensive one) to keep your menacer on his or her feet, a shark with a single high attack is useful to take down high-priority targets, and a niche unit with a special attack is extremely useful if your menacer doesn't already have one. Using the D&D set as an example, Tandros is your menacer (scoring additional attacks with his cleave power), Darrak your shark, Ana your cheerleader and Erevan niche (used to bust down fortress doors or special attack priority targets or fey step to important locations).

Looking at your most recent update of the front page, there are only five non-Utgar heros that qualify as bread and butter or menacer units: Kato Katsuro, Ulginesh, Crixus, Q9, and Migol Ironwill.

Of those five units, in a Campaign game, Kato Katsuro is of limited usefulness since he really only passes his order markers to squads. Ulginesh works great. Q9 is a no-brainer. And, although I have no experience with Migol Ironwill, I think he will have the same trouble as Crixus: he quickly gets over-run by squads, who have a 3- or 4-to 1 order marker advantage over him.

Ironically, Utgar has a much more useful collection of Menacers to use in a campaign game. Krug, Grimnak and Sir Hawthorne all have special abilities that allow them to attack more than once per order marker. But most campaign games restrict the "hero" player from drafting Utgar units.

As a result, I've found that I often use heroes that in classic 'scape would be "clean up" as "menacers" instead.

For example, I've found both Syvarris and Kaeman Awa to be effective order marker hogs in campaign games, so long as you manage to keep them protected with cheerleaders and defenders.

You mention in an earlier post that different meta-game assumptions change the roles of figures...I think you were responding to a post describing the use of Charos as a Defender in a 360-point game. Because I'm sure the same thing happens in campaign games, I'd love to hear your take on it.

 

[Jexik]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Your thoughts are pretty much spot-on.

When you have a limited pool of units, and/or drafting restrictions which force you into using more heroes, cleanup and sharks become your menacers and B&B style OM choices. A turn with Tandros isn't the best way to spend against hordes of 4th Mass, but it's certainly offensive enough to take on smaller squads in a dungeon. One team I love using in campaign games is the combo of Agent Carr and Agent Skahen.

Having a cheerleader like Raelin, and/or a niche healer like Kelda is still pretty handy.

This kind of thing also happens as non-scenario games progress. Sure, KMA are Menacers, but that's thinking about a full squad. If someone is down to just one agent, then suddenly it might even be better to take a turn on Raelin because she's less likely to lose turns from OM placement!

Even earlier in a game with Trons v. KMA, it might be worthwhile to send Raelin out to kill one.

 

[RoninValentina]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Here's my current impressions; the elemental designations are based on the assumption of three activations per OM.

Bread and Butter:
Greenscale Warriors

The only one of those I'm sure about is the Greenscale Warriors.

This amuses me, because my impression of the Greenscale Warriors is that they are not Bread and Butter, but Sharks. Why?

First, Bread and Butter are supposed to be the backbone of your army, but I don't think the Greenscale Warriors should play that role. Once the Lizard King dies, they aren't strong enough to work alone, essentially being Zombies without any of the powers. I know I saw a post by Matthias saying the same thing not thirty minutes ago, and have read similar thoughts by other 'Scapers as well. You want them out there and angry while the Lizard King is tearing it up, and then you pretty much want to ignore them if you can when he's not.

I mentioned Zombies already, and they are Sharks rather than B&B if only because they have a time limit. Once they lose that critical mass, the chances of them remaining effective reduces drastically. The same goes for the Greenscales; they have a time limit as well with the Lizard King being their critical mass. Only unlike the Zombies, who can pile on extra squads to retain effectiveness, all the Dragons are more... finite, unless you add Kelda to the equation. As a result, the more Greenscales you have, the more likely their numbers can become a liability, not a boon.

Assuming you follow my theoryscape logic, if more of them is not as good (Not a B&B trait) and they have a potentially limited time to be effective, then you ought to get the most out of them you can. That means OMs, and that makes them much more like Sharks.

 

[crazyhobbitman]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Wonderful post, jexix! it has really helped me make and choose armies. I used to be addicted to sharks and clean-up; Every army i made would have the airborne elite, cyprien esenwain, and syvarris. Now, I only have one or two sharks per army, and a maximum of 2 clean-up. Here is a 500 point army that i created, thanks to your article, and have beaten one of my friends with 4 times, with only a few minor changes:
Raelin the kyrie warrior (ROTV)
Krav Maga agents
Izumi samuri
Syvarris
1x 10th. Regiment of foot
1x ANubian wolves
What do you think?

 

[Revdyer]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Trade the Anubians for a second 10th Regiment of Foot, and you've got a dandy army.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Trade the Anubians for a second 10th Regiment of Foot, and you've got a dandy army.

Was that a crack on Englishmen?

 

[crazyhobbitman]

Trade the Anubians for a second 10th Regiment of Foot, and you've got a dandy army.

The thing is, my plan for the army is that Raelin, the kravs, and the izumis take most of the fire, and bog my opponent down, well syvarris picks them off from long range, and the 10th. regiment of foot keep him from breaking through my blokade, or outflanking me. I chose the anubians, so that, once my opponent was booged down, I could sneak up from behind with the anubians, and devistate his Sharks, Cleanup, and other units that hadn't been commited to battle yet.

 

[Frylock]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Trade the Anubians for a second 10th Regiment of Foot, and you've got a dandy army.

The thing is, my plan for the army is that Raelin, the kravs, and the izumis take most of the fire, and bog my opponent down, well syvarris picks them off from long range, and the 10th. regiment of foot keep him from breaking through my blokade, or outflanking me. I chose the anubians, so that, once my opponent was booged down, I could sneak up from behind with the anubians, and devistate his Sharks, Cleanup, and other units that hadn't been commited to battle yet.

So you're mostly using the 10th as defenders? If that's your game plan, you'd be better off with another squad of Anubians. You've got good range anyhow, so they might be better anyways. One squad of a common squad really isn't the most efficient use of points. They are priced higher because you can draft more of them. Use that to your advantage!

 

[Revdyer]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Trade the Anubians for a second 10th Regiment of Foot, and you've got a dandy army.

Was that a crack on Englishmen?

No sir.

And as to the strategy...I agree, that two squads of either of the 75 point commons is better than one of each. I would, personally, choose two of the 10th Regiment over two of the Anubian Wolves; but I would take two Wolves over one of each, due to the complexity of Order Marker placement.

 

[Ecthelion]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Is Seige a shark or a defender?

 

[Eutychus]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Jexik -- Just so you know, I'm a lurker here and not a poster... but this article and pursuant discussion is one of the best items I've found on Herscapers.com in the last few years. I had to come out of the shadows to compliment you. This helped organize many other thoughts in rankings and classifications. Yes, other choices could have been made, with perhaps 8 or 10 classes, but there is a general elegance in your original color-coded choices and they apply well to the actual dogfighting we all engage in.

Thanks for your efforts, and continued work on the rankings page.

-Eutychus

 

[Jexik]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Thanks for the kind words, Eutychus.

I'm glad people still find this useful.

Then I feel guilty that I've not been updating it as regularly as I once did. I'll probably get inspired post NHSD, so look for that.

 

[Jexik]

Re: What's in an Order Marker? (MS3 added to 1st page 1/11/1

Wow, I've been pretty neglectful of this old thread.

If you're curious about any of the colors, check the first post for what they mean. If you strongly disagree with any of the classifications, let me know. I normally write a sentence or three about each one, but that'd be pretty time consuming in this case!

Many thanks to the BOOKS of Heroscape for making this task easier!

D1: Champions of the Forgotten Realms

Mogrimm Forgehammer
Brandis Skyhunter
Sharwin Wildborn
Estivara
Torin
Phantom Knights
Fen Hydra
Sahuagin Raider
Air Elemental
Earth Elemental
Fire Elemental
Water Elemental
Wyvern
Greenscale Warriors
Greater Ice Elemental
Drow Chainfighter

D2: Warriors of Eberron

Heirloom
Kurrok the Elementalist
Mika Connour
Rhogar Dragonspine
Shurrak
Black Wyrmling
Blue Wyrmling
Iron Golem
Red Wyrmling
White Wyrmling
Goblin Cutters
Ogre Warhulk
Mind Flayer Mastermind
Warforged Soldiers
Werewolf Lord


D3- Moltenclaw's Invasion

Death Knights of Valkrill
Mezzodemon Warmongers
Ogre Pulverizer
Frost Giant of Morh
Ice Troll Berserker
Master of the Hunt
Death Chasers of Thesk
Horned Skull Brutes
Eltahale
Evar Scarcarver
Moltenclaw
Siege

 

[1Mmirg]

I'm curious about the Wyrmlings and Iron Golem.

While I feel that the IG was overhyped at some point on the boards, I also find that he is a fairly solid unit and has strong defender qualities.

And the wyrmlings are interesting. I find they seem like sharks to me (or piranha ...); anyhow, they seem fairly effective and can work fairly well in a drove.

My daughter recently stomped all over several armies by just playing Wyrmlings. By keeping them moving, using OMs well, they really surprised me. The White helps them to have more attacks than just two and the others each fill other purposes. In a big group, they were pretty effective.

Just curious for more of your thoughts on them.

 

[dok]

Ones that seem off to me:

Fire Elemental: since Kurrok is the B&B in their strong builds, it seems like the FEs themselves are more like menacers.

Heirloom: His ability to lead out and grab treasure, and his ability to disrupt builds that rely on adjacency, makes him feel more like a niche figure than a cleanup figure to me. But I guess it makes sense to classify figures as something other than niche if you can, so never mind.

Rhogar Dragonspine: did you mean cheerleader in stead of defender? Maybe I'm missing something but this seems like a typo.

Wyrmlings: I'd call the blacks and reds sharks, and the whites B&B. I'm not sure about the blues - probably sharks. I think they've done too well in OM-intensive roles (winning Hexes in Texas, most notably) to be considered niche.

Eltahale: with her ability to hit a bunch of figures that are clumped together, she feels more like a shark than a cleanup figure to me.

 

[Jexik]

I'm curious about the Wyrmlings and Iron Golem.

While I feel that the IG was overhyped at some point on the boards, I also find that he is a fairly solid unit and has strong defender qualities.

And the wyrmlings are interesting. I find they seem like sharks to me (or piranha ...); anyhow, they seem fairly effective and can work fairly well in a drove.

My daughter recently stomped all over several armies by just playing Wyrmlings. By keeping them moving, using OMs well, they really surprised me. Just curious for more of your thoughts on them.

I don't see them as particularly bad units. It's probably one of my favorite packs, and I can see all the units being popular among kids.

It's just that I think of them primarily as counter-draft units. Sprinkle them in to deal with Rats (wyrmies) or Q9 (Iggy) if your army struggles against either one.

Ones that seem off to me:

Fire Elemental: since Kurrok is the B&B in their strong builds, it seems like the FEs themselves are more like menacers.

I think there are two main ways to play the Elementals. With just Fire, or with a hodgepodge of everything else. Getting tons of one thing to the exclusion of others is textbook B&B behavior.

Heirloom: His ability to lead out and grab treasure, and his ability to disrupt builds that rely on adjacency, makes him feel more like a niche figure than a cleanup figure to me. But I guess it makes sense to classify figures as something other than niche if you can, so never mind.

Yeah, he's a souped up shotgun guy, with a neat bonus of glyph grabbing.

Rhogar Dragonspine: did you mean cheerleader in stead of defender? Maybe I'm missing something but this seems like a typo.

To be a cheerleader, you have to do something with no OM's at all. That's why Kelda is Niche and not a cheerleader. He's close to Niche, and I almost went with cleanup, but the healing and his general beefiness pushed me more towards defender. Sporadic OM's to engage bad guys and/or heal stuff.

Wyrmlings: I'd call the blacks and reds sharks, and the whites B&B. I'm not sure about the blues - probably sharks. I think they've done too well in OM-intensive roles (winning Hexes in Texas, most notably) to be considered niche.

They're all pretty similar to me, and I'm not sure I like putting them in as B&B. Maybe collective Cleanup or Sharks.

Eltahale: with her ability to hit a bunch of figures that are clumped together, she feels more like a shark than a cleanup figure to me.

Yeah, maybe.

 

[BOBULANCE]

I agree with Scape Scrub. I think order marker management is a lot of what makes Heroscape what it is. I tried the Basic Game one time, and I nearly banged my head against the table. (Although that was probably more due to the fact that there's never a reason to take a turn with anything but Grimnak than the lack of order markers.) I've also never played larger than a 650 point army for any player. Playing a 2000-point game is what makes a game take a long time-it's not the order markers' faults.

I don't really understand the appeal of avoiding using order markers, or changing how many each player has. If you double the number of order markers that both sides have, I don't see how it shortens the length of the turns at all. Each side is still moving the same number of times. 3 and an X seems like a rather astute design choice to me.

If you have both sides move their entire armies at once, or something similar to that, it royally screws up the balance of a lot of units and their point costs. Common units, bonding units, Kato, Deathreavers, and many others would lose a lot of their utility, all in the name of simplifying an already simple game.

But then again, I'm one of those weird people who only has two master sets (1 RotV and 1 SotM now), 1TT, 1 FotA, and 1 RttFF terrain-wise and eagerly awaits new units.

Sorry if I sounded a bit snarky. Should I not have put this in the official units thread? I meant to classify the official units from a slightly different perspective and possibly help people understand a less obvious sort of synergy.

But I guess that's what I love about Heroscape after all. It's that Theats and I can both pick it up and enjoy it in our own way. You can pick and choose, and spend as much or as little as you like. I saw some kids in a Wal-mart the other day excited over the Marvel boxed set. I don't plan to buy it myself, but if it helps keep standard expansions coming out for the next 5 years, I'm all for it.

nicely written. anyways, jexik, I disagree. I dont really like using order markers. However, I dont play the basic game. I still do the master game, i just modify the powers to fit a game without order markers. But you think a 2000 point army is big? When I play a casual game, i use every single piece i have! battle royal baby!

 

[Killometer]

How long have you been playing HS without OMs? I think that OMs are one of the top features of the game-they force you to anticipate which figures will be the most valuable to activate. Without them the tactical facet of the game suffer enormously.

 

[Jexik]

nicely written. anyways, jexik, I disagree. I dont really like using order markers. However, I dont play the basic game. I still do the master game, i just modify the powers to fit a game without order markers. But you think a 2000 point army is big? When I play a casual game, i use every single piece i have! battle royal baby!

I think 600 points is big. It seems like we're looking for different things in the game, and that's okay.

 

[IAmBatman]

ej??? Is that you??

 

[Sherman Davies]

nicely written. anyways, jexik, I disagree. I dont really like using order markers. However, I dont play the basic game. I still do the master game, i just modify the powers to fit a game without order markers. But you think a 2000 point army is big? When I play a casual game, i use every single piece i have! battle royal baby!

I think 600 points is big. It seems like we're looking for different things in the game, and that's okay.

Apparently, the two of you are also looking for different things in punctuation and capitalization.

 

[Orcs Blade]

How long have you been playing HS without OMs? I think that OMs are one of the top features of the game-they force you to anticipate which figures will be the most valuable to activate. Without them the tactical facet of the game suffer enormously.

I agree. I tried the game without order markers for a while, and it resulted in me not wanting to play heroscape, because it just wasn't the game that it had been...The period in which I didn't play heroscape was about a year...(I'm happy to say that I am now playing again! Although I only started again recently)

 

[The Deadliest Warrior]

I do appreciate Order Markers because I can see the strategic value it opens and it keeps both myself and my opponents on edge, waitng to see which Units will make their move next. My friends know this, though, and fear my prowess with Order Markers. Sadly, this has resulted in their refusal to use them as they want to use whatever Units they see fit to use that turn. This often ends in me using imaginary Order Markers (with the benefit of the "X" Order Marker gone) and me still crushing them with ease.

*sigh* If only they could read this valuable thread... and stop being sissies who are afriad to fight me at my own game!

Pardon my rant, but some people simply cannot use Order Markers. Unfortunately, everyone I play falls into this category.

 

[flameslayer93]

I do appreciate Order Markers because I can see the strategic value it opens and it keeps both myself and my opponents on edge, waitng to see which Units will make their move next. My friends know this, though, and fear my prowess with Order Markers. Sadly, this has resulted in their refusal to use them as they want to use whatever Units they see fit to use that turn. This often ends in me using imaginary Order Markers (with the benefit of the "X" Order Marker gone) and me still crushing them with ease.

*sigh* If only they could read this valuable thread... and stop being sissies who are afriad to fight me at my own game!

Pardon my rant, but some people simply cannot use Order Markers. Unfortunately, everyone I play falls into this category.

My sister doesn't quite understand the point of them either. However, that can be easily remedied by still enjoying your game. If your still crushing them, why not play Sparty,Nagrubsx6, and Groksxwhatever

(...or try campaigns, which don't require OM's to be fun)