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Welcome to the Engineers of Valhalla

S1R_ART0R1US

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Welcome to the Engineers of Valhalla. Our goal for this project is to bring new Terrain Creations to the world of Heroscape. In this, we will be bringing in new features, to expand map creation opportunities, and create fun new interactions for our beloved heroes.
We will be making depositories of a variety of different types of terrain. As layed out by @Grishnakh, with a big thanks to him for all his work. here is a quick overview of the different categories we hope to expand.



• 4 types of terrain on the battlefield:

1. Terrain Tiles (or just Tiles)
These are the actual tiles that you build the battlefield out of (grass, rock, sand, water, ice, snow, road, lava, lava field, etc.). At the moment I do not have any specific rules regarding these types of tiles other than the normal Heroscape rules associated with those tiles.

2. Objects
These are basically Non-Destructible Objects. They are placed onto the battlefield, but you cannot interact with them, nor destroy them.Some examples would be buildings, trees, large rocks, castle walls, bridges, etc.

3. Interactive Terrain Features (ITFs)
ITFs are terrain that is placed on the battlefield that you can use, or interact with. You can pick up these items and carry them, or use them as weapons. These items are such things as cars, street signs, computer consoles, train cars, equipment "glyphs", etc. (In my system of Interactive Terrain Features they all fit neatly into 1 of 5 categories, or Classes. If you're interested I posted some abbreviated rules recently on my Custom Terrain Thread).

4. Destructible Objects (DOs)
There are only two Destructible Objects (or DOs) associated with the official game, the castle door and the wall section of the ruined warehouse. However, the framework surrounding both of these “destructible parts” (the door and the wall section) are just static “Objects”. I currently do not have any specific rules regarding this type of terrain other than the normal Heroscape rules for them. My group always felt that DOs were way too limiting in what you can actually "do" with them, which is to just destroy them and remove them from play. Why they're called Destructible Objects honestly. Unless they are part of a very specific scenario objective (like destroy mole man's underground earthquake beam before it destroys New York) I do not use Destructible Objects.

Current Members: @Muskie, Trex, @Just_a_Bill, @lefton4ya, @S1R_ART0R1US, @Tornado @Shiftrex, @Flash_19
Current Contributors:
Grishnakh
 
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So wonderful to see this! I wish this project the best of luck and I look forward to seeing what you all are cooking up. Some great contributors already so I know you and your team will do great things TREX!
 
So wonderful to see this! I wish this project the best of luck and I look forward to seeing what you all are cooking up. Some great contributors already so I know you and your team will do great things TREX!

Thanks. Feel free to join in on the conversation.
 
Do one of the members want to set up a thread for our rules and processes as discussed in the brainstorming thread? I don’t want to personally manage all of our thread OPs. I believe both @lefton4ya, and @S1R_ART0R1US outlined them well. If we can get a good combination of our rules in there, that would be great. Also, another thread where designers can propose a design to be discussed and passed off before the team on its journey to be its own blueprint. We can call it the EOV drafting table workshop or something to that extent. Where people can present their ideas with an outline of what piece they want to do, along with what it does, how it works, what file will be used, and what it brings to the table. This can also be the place where the piece can be categorized. Later on we will make a thread that has links to all the different Blueprints. A sort of Books of index but with our blueprints. This can be made when we finish at least one design.
 
I would think we would want all of the discussion/development for a particular piece (or set of pieces) in one thread, and then after it's finalized create a brand-new thread for the Blueprint (so it isn't cluttered by endless pages of development details).
 
I would think we would want all of the discussion/development for a particular piece (or set of pieces) in one thread, and then after it's finalized create a brand-new thread for the Blueprint (so it isn't cluttered by endless pages of development details).

That sounds fine. We should make a workshop thread for this. It is nice to be able to find all the seriously fleshed out designs in their own place but whichever way works best without cluttering up things would be a good route. We still need an author to put together our rules and procedures thread as well as a thread we can put and discuss our serious ideas for pieces that will be done. I envision it in three steps. Brainstorming thread, workshop thread, individual blueprint thread for each pieces journey. Whether the blueprint thread is the final place or the design place into final place , I don’t mind, as long as the process works well.
 
I owe this group an outline for a structure that we’ll be happy with and will work on that this week. I also look forward to hosting some map competitions/tournaments/other collaborations with the wider community to show the value of expanding the terrain available to HeroScape players casual and competitive alike.
 
Okay, so I stayed up late and put together this fat wall of text to outline the design and review processes for EoV. Let me know what you think and if there are any gaps in my understanding. A key question is whether advancing stages in the Workshop is vote driven or design lead driven. I think votes aren't needed actually, since votes are taken during the ERB, and rejection there can just move things back into the "Blueprint" thread for refining the design.


The Engineers of Valhalla Charter

The Engineers of Valhalla (EoV) has been created to give HeroScape players a source of new terrain objects for map and scenario creation in the spirit of official HeroScape. The EoV works in two different areas - the Workshop and the Engineering Review Board. The Workshop (and the child Blueprint threads for each design) are where new ideas from EoV members are publicly debated and refined. The Engineering Review Board is where designs from the Workshop (or from any community member!) are assessed against a set of standard criteria to obtain the EoV Stamp of Approval.

:lol:The Workshop

The “Engineers of Valhalla Workshop Thread” is used to track active projects. Projects start as an “Idea”, are moved into “Design”, then “Public Feedback”, then “Editing and Playtesting”, “Revision”, then finally “Documentation”. More details on these steps is below. Each project is contained in it’s own “Blueprint of Valhalla” thread, where detailed discussion on each item can be documented, details can be hashed out, and playtesting results recorded.

Idea Stage: This is where we maintain a backlog of potential ideas and designs from members. We don’t want to overwork our volunteers, so we limit the number of projects that move out of this stage. Once a design passes “Documentation”, we vote on the next idea to tackle (using ranked choice, see here https://ballotpedia.org/Ranked-choice_voting_(RCV)) and the design lead (the original creator by default) creates the "Blueprint of Valhalla" thread to kick things off.

Design: In this stage, the assigned design lead lays out their vision and takes the feedback of the group (the eventual voters on EoV approval!) to shape the design (either game mechanics or physically - this is terrain after all!).

Public Feedback: In this stage, we solicit feedback from the wider HeroScape community on the design - is it manufacturable, do people like the powers, are a destructible object’s life/attack/defense appropriate, etc. After sufficient time has passed or notice given, the design will be moved into the next stage by the Workshop crew.

Editing and Playtesting: This is an exciting phase! Maps will be created and games played (virtually, in person, solo, whatever!) with the design. As feedback is received, small changes to the design can also be playtested to inform the design space. Think of this stage as repeating a match with a custom figure but with more life, or without their special attack, or in a different army build. This empowers playtesters to find improvements without restarting the design process. The goal for EoV is at least 5 playtests for a given design.

Revision: This stage of development is the culmination of the playtesting and feedback efforts to finalize the design.

Documentation: This is a collaborative effort in the workshop to put together two key items. The first is a “Terrain Effects Description”. This is a way for the EoV to classify types of designs (see ERB section), and ensure that rules are well understood. The second item is a “Creator’s Guide” describing how to make the terrain object in question (whether it’s 3-D printed, or existing terrain repainted like the tundra glaciers and D&D rock outcrops). Once completed to Workshop crew satisfaction with a majority vote, we move to the next stage - the Engineering Review Board!

:mrgreen:The Engineering Review Board

The ERB is where community designs and Blueprints from the Workshop are assessed to see if they are worthy of the EoV Stamp. An individual (either as a community member or as a design lead from the Workshop) may only have one design in review at a time.

Designs from the Workshop that pass "Documentation" automatically go into ERB review, and a majority vote from the ERB can be used to review any submission nominated by the community in the "Engineers of Valhalla - Engineering Review Board" thread. This thread will also contain the status of past and present reviews.

Each design will be evaluated based on its terrain type, outlined by Grishnakh and defined by the EoV below.

1. Terrain Tiles (or just Tiles)
These are the actual tiles that you build the battlefield out of (battlements, grass, rock, sand, water, ice, snow, road, lava, lava field, jungle, shadow, ladders, etc.). Note that these tiles may affect movement, dice rolled, LOS, and other aspects of the game. Submissions here must include a title, height (obstacle height, half hex tile, or full height tile) and a name and description for each associated rule (Ex. Desert Tile - Full-hex height - Shifting Sands, Moving onto a desert tile counts as two spaces.)

2. Objects
These are basically Non-Destructible Objects. They are placed onto the battlefield, but you cannot interact with them, nor destroy them. Some examples would be buildings, trees, large rocks, castle walls, bridges, glaciers, rock outcrops, etc. Submissions here must include a title and height.

3. Interactive Terrain Features (ITFs)
ITFs are terrain that is placed on the battlefield that you can use, or interact with. You can pick up these items and carry them, or use them as weapons. These items are such things as cars, street signs, computer consoles, train cars, equipment "glyphs", etc. Submissions here must include a title, height, hex count, and a name and description for each associated rule (Ex. Train Car - Height 8 - Two Hexes - All Aboard - When a small or medium hero moves adjacent to the Train Car, you may remove their figure from the battlefield and place it on this Army Card. - Conductor- When revealing an order marker on a hero whose figure is located on this Army Card, instead of moving normally you may move this Train Car up to 7 spaces in a straight line and place that figure adjacent to the Train Car.)

4. Destructible Objects (DOs)
These are objects placed on the map that can be destroyed through the course of play. We have two examples associated with the official game, the castle door and the wall section of the ruined warehouse. Submissions here must include a title, life, defense, and a name and description for each associated rule. Height may also be needed depending on the design to determine adjacency.

:thumbsup: Approving Designs Through the ERB

A majority vote of ERB members is needed for approval. After approval, the EoV will translate the ruleset into a printable “Terrain Effects Card” with the EoV stamp so that any member of the community can print or share to easily teach the use of the new terrain design. Included on the card will be icons or language indicating that the design is suitable for competitive maps, casual play, or both (% or maybe we let the map designers determine this! Castle walls seldom used in competitive maps for balance reasons, but there are some).

The ERB will utilize the below criteria for each design. Each member will document their response to each question, and provide a final yes or no vote for inclusion.

Are the rules coherently written?
Do the rules interfere in a negative way with gameplay?
Is the design fun or offer interesting choices for all players in the game?
Is the design something you would want on the battlefield?
Does the design bring something new to the table?
Does it visually fit into official HeroScape (ie correct scale, feature quality, theme)?
Has the design been adequately playtested?
Are example maps with build instructions provided?
Is the design manufacturable? Note that all submissions to the ERB should have a .stl file accessible to the public. This ensures accessibility and improves the likelihood that the terrain aesthetically fits into HeroScape (no popsicle stick walls please). You may submit additional manufacturing instructions (papercraft, foam carving, etc) if desired.


8) Administration of the EoV

If a voting member of the EoV has not responded to direct requests for votes on the forums for a period of 1 month, the remaining members may vote to make their vote an abstain. IF a EoV member has been voted into abstainment on three consecutive design review, another vote may be taken to replace their position.
 
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S1R, this is awesome!!! So much great thought.

I am thinking about how you manage movement from stage to stage within the workshop. Should we have a workshop team that is separate from the ERB? I Think if we had a group that works that end and uses the Ranking system to move stuff forward, the ERB can focus on the final stages and eventual approval or rejection. I really like the ranking system for early work since it not a "good or bad" judgement, but a comparison and feedback tool.
 
I think the teams on those can definitely be separate. Can you explain the ranking a bit more? I was mentioning using ranked choice voting for the Workshop to select a new design to work on, which would only select one new design, but gives people the ability to vote on multiple. I’d want to emphasize moving one design fully through the process to sort out kinks in the process as opposed to moving all designs along each step together.
 
My thought was to have lots of ideas in the first stage of the workshop. If someone wants to move it to the next step, they can request that the evaluators take a look at it. Hopefully there are a few every few months for the evaluators to look at. They rank them, and if one stands out, it moves on. If they are all over the place on rankings, they all stay in the workshop. The evaluators can narrow things down and let people know they are close. Kind of like hall of fame voting. That is what I thought for the first steps before they move up the ladder.
 
I would like to suggest a slight amendment to the following criteria-
Does it visually fit into official HeroScape (ie correct scale, feature quality, theme)?

There's nothing I would want to remove from this, but I think that establishing the notion that pieces have to make sense within the lore of the game world. Official terrain pieces and expansions are representative of things found within Valhalla; the trees and bridges of the Forgotten Forest, shrubs and vegetation from the Ticalla Jungle, etc. etc. The only exception being the Marro Hive, which I think I'm right in saying was grown on Valhalla by the Marro themselves.
I'm not quite sure what would be the best way to word this, but I feel it's an important step in capturing the feel of a genuine Hasbro/WotC release. In other threads there have been suggestions of WW2 style gunner posts or pillboxes, which to me at least, wouldn't make sense for an official expansion; The Valkyrie summon warriors and heroes, not structures and equipment.
 
That point is going to be largely subjective I feel due to the notion that we can make any "new" or unexplored part of valhalla that we want to really. Trex leaving kinda took the momentum out of the project which sucks so I dont know if we are even going forward. If we do, I think tangible and quantifiable reasons that something fits in should be fine. No one should be able to arbitrarily limit creativity if there is a simple and feasible explanation for it.. like with a pillbox that can be built easily.

I'd like to have people give an argument of how something could exist if it seems out of place at first.
 
If Valhalla does not import equipment, where do the bullets come from for those with guns?
 
Mark Rosewater, the head designer for MtG often says that restriction breeds creativity, and I'm inclined to agree. If sticking within the realms of what could be found natively in Valhalla proves to be too limiting, then so be it. But I feel that the route to the highest quality, most official-feeling finished pieces is adhering to the patterns established by the games original designers. After all, if people want customs of any conceivable terrain pieces, their is nothing stopping them working on them for their own tables and sharing them with the world. If people want a spiritual successor to the official releases, in the vein of C3V and SOV, it only makes sense to explore that possibility before branching out if it proves to be a smaller pool to draw from than we would hope.
As for bullets, I believe that definitely sits below the abstraction layer.
 
pieces have to make sense within the lore of the game world. ... I feel it's an important step in capturing the feel of a genuine Hasbro/WotC release. ... The Valkyrie summon warriors and heroes, not structures and equipment.

I agree with all of this. Hasbro would not have released a terrain expansion that looked like the Normandy invasion, for example. You are correct that people and creatures are summoned, not infrastructure. I suppose ammunition might be somehow summoned, or it might be reverse-engineered on Valhalla; but either way, ammo is kind of a cheat-area that Hasbro very likely would not have highlighted. Kinda like how sci-fi shows never explain why people who are out of phase with the normal universe aren't pulled through the floor by gravity, or try to tell us what earthly material Superman uses to shave his invulnerable whiskers, or deal with the fact that a few years into a zombie apocalypse all the gasoline engines would be dead from ethanol poisoning. (I don't need anyone to share any official or unofficial explanations for these things; they're all lame.) So definitely no bullet-factory terrain.

I also agree with others that these things can be subjective, and there will certainly be disagreements about where the boundaries should be in specific cases. A guidepost in those disagreements should be that Hasbro always tried to protect the integrity of these battles happening on Valhalla. One example is the explanation that the AE's airdrop is implemented by Kyrie warriors flying them up above the battlefield. It's kind of a story cheat and not the most satisfying explanation, but it does tell us that Jandar did not summon a Douglas C-47 from Earth or build one on Valhalla.

When subjective situations arise, we need to hold each other back from indulging personal preferences that would erode the integrity of "What Would Hasbro Do?" If a project like this wants to be the closest thing to an official Hasbro continuation of terrain expansions, then it needs to err on the side of self-discipline rather than require absolute freedom of creativity. Within the bounds of WWHD, we have tons of room for creativity. Just no room for blurring the storyline into other things that are not the Heroscape story.

Now maybe I should clarify that I'm not at all offended by non-Valhallan customs projects. I started a Star Trek project here back in the day; I've worked on ways to make my own Stargate; I have an Indiana Jones miniature that needs painting; if I ever find a decent mini of Katniss Everdeen then I will make an army card for my daughter and will enjoy playing against that Hero; and so on. But none of these things are appropriate for the quasi-official continuation projects. Katniss doesn't belong in C3V and steel "Czech hedgehogs" don't belong in EoV.

From my perspective, this project needs to have some flexible but effective guidelines that say we are not going to produce steampunk toxic waste factories, or crashed WWII bomber wreckage, or vibranium quarries, or burned-out teepee villages and U.S. cavalry forts. If we drift outside the bounds of what Valhalla looks like, then we lose the opportunity to become the quasi-official terrain continuation project and turn into just another gallery of various people's customs. I'm not at all interested in the latter.
 
Whoops, I got ninja'd by Archie's second post.

Mark Rosewater, the head designer for MtG often says that restriction breeds creativity, and I'm inclined to agree.
This is absolutely true, and I experienced it first-hand back when I actually worked in the industry (before I became a grizzled old mostly-retired wannabe). Well-conceived design constraints push everyone to their A-game, and lead us to find cool new things that we never would have discovered if our colleagues had just given lazy thumbs-ups to our initial design instead of pressing us to refine our ideas into the compatibility zone.

As for bullets, I believe that definitely sits below the abstraction layer.
Nicely concise way to put it.
 
I'm not a fan of Mark Rosewater and this isn't MTG. I would rather look at Shigeru Miyamoto whom I would respect far more than Rosewater. He says that you should draw inspiration from everywhere:

One problem a lot of creative people have early in their careers is a single-mindedness about inspiration. When you’re focused so much on a job, you tend to seek out inspiration from within your medium. That creates a cyclical pattern that never allows you to create a truly new thing.

Bullets also only sit below the abstraction layer because that's your personal threshold, it's a valid point and shows we all have a different layer of the immersion that we are willing to embrace.

Quality is definitely something that should be defined. I'm not sure what it means to you. What it means to me is that we receive a functional, fun, and thematic addition to the game. I'm not advocating that every "conceivable" piece of terrain should be fair game but those that can be explained using simple logic while adding both aesthetic and enjoyable mechanics should be considered. Especially before telling someone to go sit in the corner and play with their terrain because we don't "think" it would appear in an imaginary world.

I don't think I'm at all concerned about imitating the official releases of a game that it out of print for 10 years at this point. Especially considering we are wanting to involve terrain that you would print, buy, create, paint and otherwise use that is not readymade out of a box like the official releases.

That is just my opinion, I don't speak for the group.
 
I understand not being a fan of Rosewater, but I don't think Nintendo is any more relevant to this project than MtG, in fact I think it is likely considerably less relevant.
The problem with your chosen quote is that it speaks to people "early in their careers", and whilst this is a new project, it is one that is seeking to emulate and continue the established body of work that we already have before us.
But let's be honest we could throw quotes and maxims about inspiration and design and creativity at one another til we're both blue in the face, so I think drawing a line under that here will save everyone a lot of time.

I'm not telling anyone to sit in a corner with their terrain, in fact quite the opposite, I advocated sharing it with the world! I simply don't see the point in this project if it doesn't aim to capture the feel of an official Heroscape expansion. The reason for a group project over working individually is to rely on one another for sharing and refining ideas, for discipline, and for cohesion. Why would we waste our time by outlining structures and procedures to maintain, if we're just going to produce more of what people have been more than capable of producing independently for themselves for over a decade on these forums?
 
I think we're all in agreement that we want quality.

There's a range of personal opinions about what would qualify as applicable to official HeroScape, and I think having this as a point of discussion for each design is reasonable. In fact, I think shiftrex's suggestion of making it part of the author's submission criteria is a good one. Let's not forget though that HeroScape brought in Marvel, brought in D&D, and from the CVN interview was seen as compatible with other franchises like Harry Potter and Star Wars. I'm not saying I want to add that content in, but I think it's worth noting that every expansion by nature pushes the envelope of what is acceptable in the game.
 
Regarding the outside properties — Marvel, D&D, Harry Potter, Star Wars — it's also worth noting that not all players incorporate these things into their core Heroscape experience. Some do, and some don't. The Marvelized side of the product line has obviously developed a very clear identity and track of its own within this fan community. That doesn't stop anybody from mixing the two to their heart's content, but it does protect the thematic integrity of both sides of the house. Hordes of C3G aficionados focus on that side without intrusions by soulborgs and D&D monsters disrupting the comic continuum, the core Scape side continues on its path without kryptonite and spandex intruding on the game they love, and everybody who wants to mix the two does so whenever they like.

With that in mind, perhaps there could be two "tracks" of EoV development. I'm not sure what the best labels would be, but functionally I'm brainstorming a core/classic terrain track and an "expanded universe" track. C/C would ask the WWHD question (and expect a thoughtful answer) while EU could, if it wanted to, accommodate anything from Star Wars Hoth shield generators to a Quidditch field to Smurf mushroom houses.

EDIT: Maybe a simpler option would be having it all one development track but categorizing each design with a "theme tier" that tries to measure how far it is from the center. Perhaps something like this:

Tier 1: What Would Hasbro Do?
Tier 2: What Would WotC Do?
Tier 3: What Would You Do?

Tier 2 would speculate on what could have happened if Heroscape had continued officially and incorporated other properties. Tier 3 would allow designs beyond the Tier 2 level of speculation. Each tier would have its own proponents, and those proponents could vote on what qualifies for that tier.

This tries to avoid both the "authenticity" side of the house being disappointed by too much dilution and the "creativity" side of the house being disappointed by too much rejection. A wide variety of designs would be accommodated, and knuckle-dragging purists like me could focus on the Tier 1 designs.
 
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