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Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

Resubmitting Yngvild Pass.

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Requires: 1 RotV and 1 TT
.PDF Download

Each pothole next to the glacier level 3 snow has been removed.
Added a level 1 ice space to each side of the glyph level 3 snow.

The new version was used at HexiCon and NE Ohio Basement Brawl (link to .org). It was also used online for CCL Qualifer #2

Same as Superfrog, I'l give Yngwild Pass an upvote as I was about to upvote the first version and the second version seems even better.

I've played the first version bunch of times and the experience was always excellent.
While looking simple it's a map that brings a lot to the table with the big glacier and the ruin effectively cutting center of the map horizontally in 4 different zones. And all 4 different zone having super interesting micro-positioning choices.
It is a map that really shines with thoughtful glyphs selection from the tournament organizer but which also works fine without that.

The center in between the 2 part of the startzone is also a point of interest, but not too strong as it can't cover the glyphs zones, so figures in the glyphs zones have free reign over the startzone while the figures on height in between the startzones have nothing to attack. While I feel some level 3 near startones is often a problem but it isn't for me on this map, I actually even see this level 3 helping melee fight range in some situations.

While having no "melee helpers" sets on it, I feel melee is completely fine on this map, the map feels very nice is to navigate through, making attacking plays on the different zones very possible, or just simply forbidding range to settle there by being there first.
Incent to go forward is very high and the action usually start extremly fast, and almost everywhere at once.

The map is beautiful, very cohesive TT+RotV landscape.

While not looking complicated, Yngwild Pass checks all the criterias of a great tournament map and should be part of the Wargrounds of Scape. YES to induct. :up:
 
Good people, I think I should withdraw Mime Raths from consideration. I don't think it's a very strong contender.

But @MegaSilver, you rock for having nominated it. Thanks for the vote of confidence — so glad you like it. :toast:
 
With ScapeCon East now concluded and some feedback in, I guess I'll nominate my Odin Wept to the WoS.

Odin Wept
Uses: 1 BftU, 1 TT, 1 VW

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An earlier version of the map was selected for ScapeCon 2022, but feedback from the event revealed some problems. That version's 3-hex outcrops/glaciers were positioned further forward. As a result, the map could be abused by ranged pods setting up shop on the big 24-hex slab just outside the SZ.

This version solves that problem by moving the 3-hex glacier/outcrop closer to the SZ. And since it was posted 8 months ago, it has been used in at least 7 tournaments that I know about:

OST 3
Dallas Draft Tournament (4/30/23)
Utah Monthlies (5/27/23)
OHS 52
Utah Monthlies August 2023 (8/26/23)
Denver tournament (11/11/23)
ScapeCon East 2023 (Nov. 10-13, 2023)

Some feedback on it (and HUGE THANKS to everybody who gave it).....

from @Dignan (link): "It served us well. I enjoyed the game I had there and I saw a lot of interesting play on the map."

from @Grey Waves (link): "This map feels very unique compared to most of the maps I've played on in tournaments, thanks in part to the unconventional terrain combo. I love the jump from level 0 to level 2 straight out of the start zone and how the glacier kind of forces you to pick one side or the other (but figures can still move smoothly from one side to the other if they need to). The shadow tiles are placed very well, and the glyphs are just out of the way enough that you need to put in effort to grab them, but not to the point where they feel unreachable. I haven't got to play as many games on this one so far, but I'm definitely looking forward to playing on it again in the future."

And from the recent ScapeCon East:

from @Shurrig (link): "....I’m always impressed with how much Typhon can get away with with such a limited terrain combo. Those 24-hexes a placed quite precariously, but just getting them up to level 2 is quite the achievement. My games on Odin Wept were fun even though I was 0-2 on it for the weekend, and neither losses felt like they were the map’s fault. It’s quite small which is good for melee and I really enjoyed the interactions between the lava and shadow tiles here. If it were at all possible to open up that level 2 lane of shadow to prevent the lava speed bump it’d make me like the map that much more, but as it is it’s still quite good."

from @Foudzing (private message): "Well the new version seems like a complete success to me, also did hear only good things about the map. The shadow lava combo is just such a sick combo gameplay-wise, the map seems very balanced range vs melee, it's just bumpy enough for range to get few free attacks but not much."

Finally, as for terrain.... I think its unique combination of terrain sets it apart, and would help fill a niche that no other map in the WoS currently does. And its requirement of only 1 dungeon set will make it more flexible than those dungeon maps which call for 2.

Thanks for your consideration!

P.S. @superfrog encouraged me to nominate the map. So if you don't like it, blame frog! :D
 
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I'd like to submit a nomination for the removal of Fulcrum from the WoS.

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As of yet, I do not think there has been a map that has gone up for reconsideration for the WoS. I've spoken with some of the judges from the WoS about this map and they seemed to more or less agree with my thoughts, and after playing on this map the most out of any other maps at Scapecon East I believe Fulcrum does not hold up to the standards of the modern competitive map meta. You can check out my abridged thoughts on this map here in the Tournament Map Feedback Thread, but I'm going to expand on those thoughts here as well, as this nomination for removal does not come lightly.

The biggest issue for me is that there is no reason to develop left on this map. Yes, you are often not sacrificing any movement from your front line going that way, but your back line as well as 4-movers will spend at minimum a full round trying just to get up on that hill, all the while your opponent gets to shoot at you from height either on that level three 3-hex or the hill they've most certainly beaten you to. The right side is simply way too powerful for range, and if you don't have flying, good luck. Speaking of flying range, Zelrig loves this map. So does Mimring. Oh, so does Nilfheim. All three of these dragons can safely bomb your start zones in one to two turns, no problem. Me-Burq-Sa as well, who will happily hop between hills while your Death Chasers rush your opponents given how small the map is. The size of the map would usually be a plus for melee 90 percent of the time, in my experience Death Chasers had no problem, but more often than not the center is too chokey for it to be of any use, so melee is stuck scratching their heads figuring out what it is they want to do.

Furthermore, and maybe this falls more into the opinion category of critiques, I don't think this map utilizes its terrain very well. I've compared this map to Percolator before to demonstrate my point, but I'll reiterate again that that map just does the terrain combo better. So does another one of Ulysses's maps, Flaxen Shard. The jungle placement here is just very problematic. When the range that was already shooting at you from level three height out the start zone gets cover as well, I look at that and truly wonder why. To be fair I don't think the level three spots in the middle are as bad, but even then you have that one hex on level four on either hill that is a concern.

My intention here is not to nominate a removal of a well-established map for the sole sake of doing so. I think Dignan is an incredible map maker and was one of those cartographers that inspired me to start making my own maps. However, time and time again this map has only further shown that its flaws competitively far outweigh its novelty in uniqueness and design. I believe there may be ways to retool this map to fit the standards of today's modern competitve map pool (Dark Fulcrum, for example), but for now Fulcrum just creates way too many problems for me to ever want to play on it in tournament.
 
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Thanks for the nomination. Certainly removing a WoS map is not something we’d do lightly, but the ability to do so was an important feature of the new rules we launched 2 years ago.

Reminder of the process: anybody can nominate a map for reconsideration, and it enters it queue like a normal nomination. If it again receives 75% or more of the votes cast, it remains inducted. If it falls short of 75%, it is removed.
 
I'd like to submit a nomination for the removal of Fulcrum from the WoS.

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As of yet, I do not think there has been a map that has gone up for reconsideration for the WoS. I've spoken with some of the judges from the WoS about this map and they seemed to more or less agree with my thoughts, and after playing on this map the most out of any other maps at Scapecon East I believe Fulcrum does not hold up to the standards of the modern competitive map meta.

I was one of the judges Shurrig was talking to before considering this removal nomination.
I never was a fan of Fulcrum even back in 2011 when it was more popular and if I were an active judge when the BoV--> WoS votes were made my vote would surely be a no for Fulcrum.
Gonna be honest, my opinion on this map is well-done, I don't need to play bunch of games on it again or to wait one of the rare times when it is in a tournament pool. Gonna elaborate later on my opnion on the map, but I think the general opinion of players is more important, and Fulcrum is by far the most controversial map of WoS especially amongst the newer playerbase (players who started around 2018 and later). To them it's obvious that Fulcrum doesn't provide the competitive fairness that modern maps provide.
In my opinion WoS maps should be "blind-inclusion, everyone will be happy" kinda maps, and Fulcrum is way too much of a controversial map to fall in that category, people aren't gonna complain but some are gonna be sightly annoyed for sure.
Also imo Fulcrum in the pool have way too much of an impact on army building, WoS maps should be maps that you don't even need to check the map pool, your army will be fine, and this is always more or less true for all maps, it's always a grey area, and you could argue some other WoS maps are like that too, but amongst all the WoS maps, Fulcrum is in my opinion the most driving for army building.

Here are the flaws of Fulcrum to me:
- If you have range advantage, podding on the infamous level 3 triangle is just too much of a "I don't need do think" play. You also can block the acess with any 5+ move squad allowing you a 2 turns setup, with height and a lot of free attacks. No glyphs on the map gives no compensation to the melee player making this pod often an obvious play, causing the map to often play very similar in the range v melee machup. Jungle mitigates the problem a bit but isn't near enough to me. The whole islands are often deserted in those machups as melee can't get any use of them, Also this causes the map to heavily pull right, the left side is just to place figures dedicated to go to the center.
I think this map was fine back in the day because some players playing range would try to get to the hills as fast as possible and kinda throw the game up. I myself did this mistake and got punished, but I think the average 2023 player would not fall for this mistake. To be fair Fulcrum plays great when range is trying to get to the hills, but thing is, range do not often need to claim hills on this map. It can just sit on level 3 triangle and use the natural bottleneck of the map to its advantage.
- Having all your army pass through a single hex to cross the map is way too restrictive. Maybe people play the map wrong and should do more water dunking, but I've yet to see a high-level game where water dunking was effective, having to water dunk 2 times to cross the map isn't fun either and is way too restrictive except maybe for some exceptions like Deathchasers where you can water dunk before turn 1.
- As Shurrig said, dragons kinda break the map, having to fight dragons with melee on fulcrum just feels terrible especially when screened by Greenscales, if the entrance to the hills where a bit wider I may reconsider, but we just played a game with Chris where I had to either water dunk or go through a single hex to get to Nilf on an island and when you finaly get here, he justs switch hill lol, it just feels unfair. (I still won the game tho because my Q9 was sitting on the level 3 triangle), but it was crazy that my 4 squads of dwarves almost didn't get any damage done, not because they were rolling bad, but because they couldn't get any attacks off.
As opposed to what people may think this isn't that huge of a drawback to me beause problematic dragons are like 5/387 units (VC included) and other fly/simily-fly ranged figures are okay (you can argue airborne when playing full melee), but still is a problem to me especially in high-tiers formats.

I still think Fulcrum can be awesome in some machups and provide a very original experience and be completely fine in a well thought map pool or in a well thought format where its flaws are mitigated but in my opinion this quote from Shurrig sums it up very well:
However, time and time again this map has only further shown that its flaws competitively far outweigh its novelty in uniqueness and design.

To me Fulcrum does not provide the competitive fairness and the "guaranteed fun floor" required for a spot in the WoS, it's not like a bad map but it has too many flaws that can be abused and is way too controversial in the community.I vote no to include Fulcrum in the WoS.
 
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If you go back and look over my many reviews at this point, you will see the recurring theme that I value maps that give unique experiences. While the many outstanding maps that have been added to the WoS list over the last couple years require a wide variety of approaches in order to win games, there’s no question that the pool of competitive tournament maps has grown to feel more homogenous. Fulcrum’s layout takes a wildly different approach from what we’re accustomed to, and as a result games on Fulcrum play out pretty differently than games on any other map.

To me, though, the biggest and most salient knock on Fulcrum is that games on Fulcrum tend to play out pretty similarly to other games on Fulcrum. You see a lot of “army with range advantage shifts right; army with range disadvantage assaults the position”. This is certainly not every game on Fulcrum, but it’s a fair number of them.

Broadly speaking, I think the map is pretty fair, even in that matchup. I’ve won plenty of games assaulting the right corner turtle, and I’ve seen others do it plenty as well. And as stated above and by others, I really enjoy how this map encourages some tactics and play patterns you rarely see on other maps.

Are there specific things I don’t like about the map? Sure. The big one that sticks out to me is that the level 3 sub-hill on the right has two jungle-protected spaces. This is just an unnecessary boost to the strongest defensive position on the map. I also feel like the left side could use its own level 3 sub hill; as it stands the left side level 2 space before the water ends up being a bit of an empty quarter of the map, only used occasionally for transit, or in the odd match against ranged flyers.

All of this is to say that I wouldn’t mind seeing a modestly updated version of Fulcrum in the WoS. One of the main ideas of this project is to be a living list where maps can leave and arrive and change. But in much the same way that I value diversity in sets used, I value diversity in map shape, style, and tactical approach. IMO the overall WoS is still stronger with Fulcrum than it is without it. YES to retain Fulcrum.
 
I may not have played as many games as dok on Fulcrum, but I have played many, many games on it. It can be a hard map, but I have consistently found it fair across many competitive armies. I love the use of cover and jungle, as well as water. I'm not a big fan of the height proximate to the start zone, but the walls help limit this position (I wish both sides could have the small ruin).

While I recognize that Fulcrum doesn't fit in well with many current maps and map-making approaches, I believe it still does what it does well--encouraging players to prepare for a diversity of possible maps and forcing players to try different playstyles than they may be used to.

Fulcrum won't be everyone's favorite map, in every tourney, but it continues to feel relevant and meaningful.

Like dok, I wouldn't mind some small modifications to it, but I think it retains its value in the WoS. I vote YES to keep it in the WoS.

--

While I am here, I'll also vote in favor of the changes to Origin. These are smart choices that help the map play better.

Origin remains a map that is on the edge of my comfort zone. It is a bit too rough on melee units (and really frustrates 4 move units!), but I think it is the best of the best for a single RotV and good enough to be used in any tourney's map pool. I think it is valuable for the WoS to have maps like this that do as much as it does, as well as it does, with only a single set.

I vote YES to the new Origin.
 
I've played more games on Fulcrum than probably anybody with the exception of maybe dok (or Dignan). I have slaughtered range with melee countless times in tournaments and continue to do so on Fulcrum (just played it a local in Jan). I see no reason for it to be dismissed from the WoS.

I vote NO to remove Fulcrum.
 
Fulcrum by Dignan
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I really don't have too much to add beyond what's already been said. I've never had major issues playing melee into range on this map. I don't mind the jungle protecting the 3-hex: if you're playing against range, the other side will be shooting down at you; if you're playing against melee, the jungle bonus doesn't matter.

I think a handful of tweaks (I have 2-3 in mind) could improve this map. For example, pivoting the jungle bush so it's behind the 3-hex would make it ever so slightly easier for melee to attack a figure on the back right space of the 3-hex. It's a small change, but one that I think would improve the map overall.

However, I don't think this is a map that needs an update. Just about every map could be improved with an update, and that isn't dispositive when judging a map. Fulcrum provides a balanced and unique experience, and I'd hate to see it removed from WoS (especially given that I don't think it's a bottom 5 WoS map). NO to remove.
 
With all the Fulcrum discussion going on, I'm nominating Dark Fulcrum. Maybe it'll be my first yes vote...

darkfulcrum1_MRD.jpg


Download:
https://www.heroscapers.com/community/downloads.php?do=file&id=5308

Image:
https://www.heroscapers.com/downloads/darkfulcrum1_MRD.jpg

It's been used like 8945 times. Here are some:

Tournaments:

Peoria 2023 Monthlys
https://heroscape.org/tournament/?Tournament=69
https://heroscape.org/tournament/?Tournament=91

Missouri Summer Seasonal
https://heroscape.org/tournament/?Tournament=115

MARS D.C. Reverse the Whip
https://heroscape.org/tournament/?Tournament=122

ScapeCon III
https://heroscape.org/convention/?Convention=1

Utah 2023 | September
https://heroscape.org/tournament/?Tournament=144
 
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Nightfall by Typhon
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I included this map in the ScapeCon map pool on the recommendation of my events crew. And the more I've played it, the more I've enjoyed it.

I have some very minor critiques involving moving right (it could be a little better) and the width of the map (it feels like it could be 1 hex narrower on each side), but these are very minor criticisms.

Games often take place across the map; the road is useful without being too strong; range has opportunity to use natural bumps in the elevation to take some safe potshots; and the height is very well distributed. This is the best Marvel map I've played so far, and although it uses a fair amount of sets, it's not particularly terrain intensive given that there aren't that many great Marvel maps yet. I'd happily play on this map anytime. YES to induct.


Odin Wept by Typhon
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I love this map. Typhon has stretched these 3 sets to the max. The initial height jump during development and the slight bump in terrain elevation in the center provide just enough time for range to take some potshots before being overrun. The lava is placed very well, the glaciers provide meaningful line of sight blockers, and the shadow is placed extremely well.

The one issue before was the 3-hex glacier outside the starting zone. This created a pretty obnoxious podding spot. Typhon's update eliminated that issue.

This is a fantastic map. I'm pretty sure it's my favorite lava map. The entire center is so well done. YES to induct.


Dark Fulcrum by GameBear (Original by Dignan)
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There has been a lot of talk about Fulcrum recently. I still really like the original, and I think Dark Fulcrum is an excellent version of it.

The 3-hex is no longer covered by jungle (removing one of the more controversial elements of the original). The shadow is well placed in both the center and in the (previous) water streams. This makes it just a touch easier to access the hills, which helps melee catch a dragon, and can allow range to make a play for some early height shots while still quickly falling back (and not having to stop in the water).

One of the bigger changes is to the sand 7-hex on the left side. It is now its own isolated level 2 height, which provides range a little more opportunity to force melee figures to attack up. This is a very nice way to help counterbalance the addition of shadow spaces to the center (which provide a nice +2 bonus to the 2 central hexes).

This map is balanced for both melee and range. Every change that helps one has a corresponding change that helps the other. GameBear + Dignan is usually going to be a winning combo, and that is fully evident here. This is the best 2 BftU + 1 TJ map I've played. YES to induct.
 
Nightfall by @Typhon2222
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Nightfall is a great map. I've heard some people describe is as a marvel/dungeon version of Aeon, and when I saw the maps physically side-by-side for the first time at our last SoCal event the similarity was striking.

(If you go back and read my Aeon review I noted that Aeon wasn't my favorite map, but having played on it more since then it has continued to impress me more and more.)

Despite a somewhat similar "ring around the center tree" road setup, Nightfall has a couple features that distinguish it from Aeon, most notably the more-open/dynamic sides, the level 2 shadow, and the difference in intermediate height. Where Aeon has the level 3 grass around the big tree, and a single level 3 perch behind the single tree, Nightfall has better access to immediate level 3 and features a 2-hex level 3 perch (a la my Canary or Turmoil) in the middle of the road.

At first I was confused by the level 2 on the right below the level 3 7-hex (it doesn't connect to any other level 2), but I appreciate the little wrinkle it provides in gameplay, where it can occasionally act as a pseudo-perch for screened-off ranged figures, but then can become a trap that gives up high ground if the screen disintegrates.

Overall I've very much enjoyed my games on Nightfall. Gameplay flows nicely through different areas of the map and a wide variety of armies can get benefits from the road/shadow/perches with no one spot dominating gameplay.

:up: to induct.
 
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