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Time for some new Approved Terrain

Muskie

Muskie

Active member
Hi guys,

I started the conversation on the facebook page and what to bring it here as well. I think it is time to introduce new "approved" custom terrain like we have done for SOV and C3V characters. Is there a group that could do this? We have brought so much to the game with these new characters. terrain needs to be cheap and plentiful (like characters). I have posted two ideas on Facebook: bamboo (not my original idea, but cheap and easy) and monoliths (free STL files). I have not fleshed out rules for each, hence the discussion, play testing, modification and finally approval or rejection. What are the thoughts and can we do this? I think lots of people have great ideas and we could create a process and committee to move this forward. There has been no additions in over 11 years.
 
This is a great idea. With printers being super readily available or the services to get prints, this is totally doable. I’ve had tons of ideas for this. The anti 3D printing folks really need to open up to new horizons. It is really limiting the possibilities in a world of scape that should have endless possibilities. I already enjoy it on a personal level and have for years. Good on you for bringing up the subject. For anyone wanting to jump down my throat for saying this is a great suggestion, save the negativity for someone else. It would also be cool to find out how to add any new stuff to the likes of virtual scape.
 
I don't intend on offering a yes/no opinion on the general topic at this point (because I think it will detract from the issues I'm mentioning below), but I do want to point out a few important ways that adding terrain is different from adding figures via C3V/SoV.

1) It's harder for a mixed classic/C3V tournament to use. A large event with lots of pre-set maps can switch between classic & C3V events easily because the maps stay the same. Essentially an event with multiple tournaments happening sequentially would have to be exclusively custom terrain inclusive or exclusive, which is a harsher standard than VC figures requires.

2) New terrain affects past figures more than new figures do. A new figure only affects a sub-set of figures who have synergy with it whereas new terrain would likely affect > 50% of figures (i.e. if affecting small/medium/large). This makes balancing harder and new introductions affect power rankings more broadly.

3) Terrain releases would happen less frequently than figure releases.

4) There's less room to expand in new terrain than new figures. Ultimately Heroscape doesn't have a ton of different game mechanics, and a lot of them are already covered by existing terrain. This makes 'releasing in perpetuity' like C3V does much harder (and risky, from a power creep perspective).

Those are my initial thoughts on key differences.
 
I just want to say that this is a really good idea. We’ve never ruled out expanding the universe of terrain for map makers to have at their disposal. We just need the right thing.

It’s an outstanding idea.
 
I agree with what is being said. If this is going to happen and happen legitimately, it will need to be put together carefully. There is a lot of potential in way of new terrain, but I don't want excessive amounts of releases to alter and detract from the game I know and love. Any releases would need to be few and far between. I'm not saying I don't want it to happen. Just in slow, digestible amounts.
 
@coachmuskie, with free 3D stl files being shareable, and obtain able I think this is a good idea. I would actually like to add to this in saying. It would be fun to hold terrain custom contests using stl files that the community can vote on for their favorite. I’d love to create a Destructible Object/terrain worksho that can hold all the designs that are come up with that are balanced and fun ideas. As you said above. They would need to be free and shareable files. Also, they would need to fit the confines of hex spaces. Preferably most being less than 7 hexes. Lastly, an easy to paint design. Ideally the terrain introduced into the fray would have to add something interesting to the game in some way. Whether its a destructible object or piece of terrain, it should bring something to the table other than a los blocker. I have messed around with different ideas myself with portal gates, magic crystals, and man able turrets using a variant of HoSS turret rules. If we were to use these new terrain pieces on official maps we could represent them with different things in virtualscape similar to what we have done with BoSS maps. Some of the terrain pieces may mess with some characters making them better or worse, but none would do that worse than molten lava at any point. I would say that a bunch of these new DO objects would just add more fun and interesting dynamics to the battlefield.
 
I saw something earlier about destructible trees. Stuff like that could be cool as well. Obelisks that can heal one point of damage, idols that give a +1 range. Stones that can can give an auto shield. there are lots of little things that would be fun to introduce and create. The bamboo that I am working on would allow Small to pass through, medium can pass through with -1 movement, large and huge cannot pass through. It also works like jungle. Stuff like that!
 
a monolith that allows you to summon figures to you on a d20 roll. Portals. so much

I am all in on this project!
 
Chris Perkins said:
I don't intend on offering a yes/no opinion on the general topic at this point (because I think it will detract from the issues I'm mentioning below), but I do want to point out a few important ways that adding terrain is different from adding figures via C3V/SoV.

1) It's harder for a mixed classic/C3V tournament to use. A large event with lots of pre-set maps can switch between classic & C3V events easily because the maps stay the same. Essentially an event with multiple tournaments happening sequentially would have to be exclusively custom terrain inclusive or exclusive, which is a harsher standard than VC figures requires.

2) New terrain affects past figures more than new figures do. A new figure only affects a sub-set of figures who have synergy with it whereas new terrain would likely affect > 50% of figures (i.e. if affecting small/medium/large). This makes balancing harder and new introductions affect power rankings more broadly.

3) Terrain releases would happen less frequently than figure releases.

4) There's less room to expand in new terrain than new figures. Ultimately Heroscape doesn't have a ton of different game mechanics, and a lot of them are already covered by existing terrain. This makes 'releasing in perpetuity' like C3V does much harder (and risky, from a power creep perspective).

Those are my initial thoughts on key differences.
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Chris, all very valid points. That is why I was thinking smaller pieces instead of a whole terrain set. These could be rare, and placed like glyphs as well. The example I use is an Obelisk. A hero standing by an Obelisk could roll a d20 to access it's power: (this is a very rough idea). 1 - take a wound, 2-8 nothing happens, 9-14 heal a wound, 15-19, gain +1 attack this turn, 20 resurrect a figure. Now, I thought of this in 5 minutes without lots of thought. But two of these on a board would act like gylphs (with a little LOS block).
 
coachmuskie said:
Chris Perkins said:
I don't intend on offering a yes/no opinion on the general topic at this point (because I think it will detract from the issues I'm mentioning below), but I do want to point out a few important ways that adding terrain is different from adding figures via C3V/SoV.

1) It's harder for a mixed classic/C3V tournament to use. A large event with lots of pre-set maps can switch between classic & C3V events easily because the maps stay the same. Essentially an event with multiple tournaments happening sequentially would have to be exclusively custom terrain inclusive or exclusive, which is a harsher standard than VC figures requires.

2) New terrain affects past figures more than new figures do. A new figure only affects a sub-set of figures who have synergy with it whereas new terrain would likely affect > 50% of figures (i.e. if affecting small/medium/large). This makes balancing harder and new introductions affect power rankings more broadly.

3) Terrain releases would happen less frequently than figure releases.

4) There's less room to expand in new terrain than new figures. Ultimately Heroscape doesn't have a ton of different game mechanics, and a lot of them are already covered by existing terrain. This makes 'releasing in perpetuity' like C3V does much harder (and risky, from a power creep perspective).

Those are my initial thoughts on key differences.
Click to expand...

Chris, all very valid points. That is why I was thinking smaller pieces instead of a whole terrain set. These could be rare, and placed like glyphs as well. The example I use is an Obelisk. A hero standing by an Obelisk could roll a d20 to access it's power: (this is a very rough idea). 1 - take a wound, 2-8 nothing happens, 9-14 heal a wound, 15-19, gain +1 attack this turn, 20 resurrect a figure. Now, I thought of this in 5 minutes without lots of thought. But two of these on a board would act like gylphs (with a little LOS block).
Click to expand...

I think having a workshop to flesh out the ideas in to keep them fun, bring new things to the table, but keep balanced game play wise, is a great idea. Also include a depository with a “books of” type of OP for the designs that make the cut. It should probably be located in the custom terrain forum. We would have to be careful about boosting units with certain bonuses. Giving an auto shield to figures already sitting next to raelyn could break the game. Just food for thought as we brainstorm this venture.
 
I think there is way more to explore with terrain than some suspect.
The terrain itself can change game play without necessarily introducing new game mechanics but I think that is where the real fun can begin.
 
Tornado said:
I think there is way more to explore with terrain than some suspect.
The terrain itself can change game play without necessarily introducing new game mechanics but I think that is where the real fun can begin.
Click to expand...

You are 100% correct T. I think the terrain piece designs can be pretty easy to incorporate. At the end of the day, the terrain is only going to be as balanced as the map is created. This is the same reason we don’t use ladders on a bunch of our competitive maps, and don’t place jungle terrain in combination with high points on the maps. This would be one heck of a project. Any ideas designs that get through a process to be deemed worthy, I’ll create a depository for them with the correctly scaled and used terrain. I can also ensure that it is easy to print and not full of errors. I know Coach Muskie is interested. I am interested in starting this project. All of you that know me know I have a passion for terrain. Let’s gather a group of members together and do this thing.
 
I really think this project would be a good add in to the ARV . Though we have been primarily focused on creating balanced competitive maps, I think it could fall under the same category of Architects of Valhalla seeing how we would be building and adding in terrain. @Sir Heroscape, @Nomad, @Robber, @BiggaBullfrog, @Tiranx, @Flash_19. What do you guys think? It could be a cool sub addition to the Architects group. If you say nay, it will start another place. May as well be there aye?
 
With the benefits of 3d printing, I think this is a wonderful idea. I would certainly echo the sentiments of @Chris Perkins and @Dad_Scaper - it absolutely has to be done right. But there is so much potential, that I'd love to see something like this take off.
 
I don’t think it could really become official or accepted until it got added to VirtualScape. I feel like custom terrain is just custom terrain until it’s added to the software that builds the maps.
 
Sir Heroscape said:
I don’t think it could really become official or accepted until it got added to VirtualScape. I feel like custom terrain is just custom terrain until it’s added to the software that builds the maps.
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With 3D printed terrain, there is already a 3D model that could be imported into it. I’m just not sure on the coding part to get it in there. I haven’t learned to code yet. I don’t think we should let that stand in the way. Speaking of 3D printing, I just picked up another one for terrain and larger models like vehicles.
 
I guess through the "approval" process, it could be created for virtual scape. As we have learned with the C3V and SOV, the process (which is good) takes a while and goes through a rigorous testing. By then, the critical mass for sale could be created by printers and creators, and be ready to go both in physical and virtual form.
 
I was looking through some of the old threads regarding virtualscape resources. It would require someone with the knowledge to code using that specific language. I’m not sure I know of anyone that is familiar with it that is an active scaper. Despite what Biden said, I don’t think it’s as easy to learn to code as he says.;). I’m a mechanic and know nothing about coding. All jokes aside, that is the biggest thing in the way when it comes to virtualscape terrain add one. The 3D models already have meshes to be imported.
 
I think this is a great idea! I think there could be some cool things to do with terrain. In regards to design, we could use the colored dots to represent their location on a map (because I think most would be on the top level) in VirtualScape for live builds, and can place it onto the top down view for online matches.

I've been feeling like despite the presence of soulborgs in the HeroScape universe, there is no real terrain to represent them. Imagine booster hexes that can add move if only used vertically (like the ones in the Halo videogame), force fields that don't block LOS but only allow heroes to move through them. And of course there's other characters that are represented as figures but without terrain - imagine feudal Japanese shrines that make figures within 1 or 2 hexes untargetable from non-adjacent attacks, WWII pillboxes like battlements (but without the height advantage they typically get), or Native American campfires that give adjacent figures +1 range.

I think what to be nice to have with this project is 1) a list of the different terrain ideas 2) a status for the terrain (design, playtesting, public feedback, editing like AotV uses) and 3) a card template that gives a simple rules description for what the terrain does in the vein of glyph cards.
 
S1R_ART0R1US said:
I think this is a great idea! I think there could be some cool things to do with terrain. In regards to design, we could use the colored dots to represent their location on a map (because I think most would be on the top level) in VirtualScape for live builds, and can place it onto the top down view for online matches.

I've been feeling like despite the presence of soulborgs in the HeroScape universe, there is no real terrain to represent them. Imagine booster hexes that can add move if only used vertically (like the ones in the Halo videogame), force fields that don't block LOS but only allow heroes to move through them. And of course there's other characters that are represented as figures but without terrain - imagine feudal Japanese shrines that make figures within 1 or 2 hexes untargetable from non-adjacent attacks, WWII pillboxes like battlements (but without the height advantage they typically get), or Native American campfires that give adjacent figures +1 range.

I think what to be nice to have with this project is 1) a list of the different terrain ideas 2) a status for the terrain (design, playtesting, public feedback, editing like AotV uses) and 3) a card template that gives a simple rules description for what the terrain does in the vein of glyph cards.
Click to expand...
Well said. Using the colored start zone dots is what HoSS uses for its destructible crates and turrets. Getting “official” support here is the only thing that is truly the problem with this idea. If there are enough people that want to do it, we should just do it.
 
coachmuskie said:
I am in and all for getting involved.
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@Flash_19 and @Sir Heroscape had some decent outlines for how the project could be presented in the ARV discussion thread. We would probably need to start up a new thing for terrain in the terrain customs thread. Since it would not be ARV in particular or judged by ARV, it would need its own name. Architects of Valhalla’s name suits the project but it isn’t in the same vein exactly as the other project. @coachmuskie, why don’t you spearhead this one. Let’s do a thread for brainstorming what all the project goals would be. An outline of the project if you will.

EDIT: Here's the tidbit @Flash_19 threw down that seems like a good start.

Hey guys, we are interested in collecting people's ideas for unique terrain (including links to STL's and so forth), any potential rules you may have for that terrain, and maps that you have created using that terrain. As of right now, this could be a source for people to turn to when they want ideas for additional terrain that might work well with the game and to see what other people are using.
 
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I guess we can just brainstorm here until we make an actual thread for it all.

Overview Guidelines:

-The files would have to be a free and shareable source.

-There would have to be a standardized size/scale for every object or piece of terrain that is presented.

-Every piece that is presented must be presented with an outline of what mechanics it might bring to the table. (Pretty LoS blockers have their place)

-We could separate terrain into three groups: Destructible Objects, Interactive Terrain, Passive Terrain. Destructible Objects and Interactive terrain would both need an overview or discussion starting point to be presented. While Passive Terrain is something like Fancy LOS objects that come in a set with some cool Interactive Terrain that may be the featured piece.

-Terrain that is to be tested on maps created in virtualscape may be represented by using additional colored start zone dots and noted in the map description.

-Brainstorming, testing, and display threads will be decided on at a later time.

This is just a little something to get the discussion started. If anyone has anything to add to this feel free to do so, and we can get to building ;)
 
We do have 2 (possibly 3 or 4) readily available new terrain, all from the MtG:AotV sets: Cryptoliths, Sand hex terrain, sand terrain on mats (can count same as sand hex terrain) and "weirded spaces" terrain on mats.
highways%20over%20innistrad_7FJ.jpg
mountainovertheshadow-c_D8X.jpg


I made a thread New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules and a Cryptolith Maps download from the Herosape and Magic:AotP Cryptolith Map Contest, however the Arena of the Valkyrie (AotV) project will be coming up for rules for Crypoliths and most likely sand and weirded spaces terrain. See our Pillar of Hár (Crypolith) currently in Playtesting
 
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