• Welcome to the Heroscapers 2.0 site! We've still got some dust to clear and adjustments to make, including launching a new front page, but we hope you enjoy the improvements to the site. Please post your feedback and any issues you encounter in this thread.

The Book of The Top

Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I did a quick search of "minimum of" in the sortable index and got this list of relevant abilities. All of them are reducing the relevant stat(s) to a "minimum of 1":

  • DarkSeid/Iron Monger Imposing Presence (A,D)
  • Mister Freeze Freeze Ray/Ice Freeze Blast (M,D)
  • Mole Man Swarm Distraction (D)
  • Saturn Girl Mental Walls (A)
  • Wonder Man Celebrity Status (D)
  • Ant Man Small But Mighty (A)
  • Count Vertigo Nullify (R)
  • Dazzler Dazzled (MRAD)

I believe those are the only two powers that subtract from Range, and both call out a minimum of 1. That's probably a good policy to stick with (i.e. we shouldn't make a range subtraction power that doesn't have a minimum unless we really want to be able to completely null a figure's ability to attack).

Aside from that, I think the ruling should probably be that if the subtractions could reduce a stat to zero, while one (but not all) power reduces to a minimum of 1, the stat is reduced to zero. The logic is that the player who controls the power can choose to apply the relevant powers in whatever order they choose. If different players control the relevant powers and they can't agree on the order (possible in a free for all), you dice off to decide the order. (Probably best to limit the dice off to once per turn to prevent tedious/weird interactions.)

Example possible R&C:

Q: If I attack a 3-defense figure next to Darkseid with Wolverine, does Imposing Presence help reduce the defense to 0, or does it stop at 1 defense?
A: The controlling player decides the order the powers are applied.
If the same player controls Wolverine and Darkseid, then they can apply Imposing Presence first to reduce defense to 2, then apply Adamantium Claws to reduce defense to 0.

Q: What if different players control the defense-reducing powers?
A: The players dice off to decide which power is applied first that turn.
So the first time Wolverine attacked that figure that turn, the two players would roll d20s. If Darkseid's power is applied first the figure's defense would be 0; if Wolverine's power is applied first the figure's defense is 1. That order remains in effect until the end of that player turn; you dice off again the next player turn.
 
Last edited:
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I’m in support of that Q and A. That’s how I view things as well.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I think that's a good interpretation, but I wouldn't mind updating a few cards to strike out those minimums, at least for Move and Defense, just to reduce the number of cases where this can come up.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I'd be happy to see simplification of the powers for Mole Man, Wonder Man, and Mister Freeze/Ice. But Imposing Presence and Dazzled both tie up the Move/Defense reduction with another stat reduction, so you couldn't remove those minimums without some kind of annoying wording changes.

But I think you could extend it to Attack as well, honestly. The only uncapped attack reduction powers are:

  • Psycho-Man Fear
  • Atom Mollecular Irritant
  • Tombstone Intimidating Presence
  • Mockingbird Mocking Words (d20 roll required)
  • Kryptonie Man Kryptonian Killer (limited to Kryptonians, all of whom have 4A+)
  • Clayface Smother

  • Brainiac 12-level intellect (actually works on skulls)
  • Falcon Redwing Distraction (actually works on skulls)

Some of these powers are limited by timing in the round, once per round effect, ability to remove the effect, or d20 roll. But to be honest I don't feel like there's any solid reason why Tombstone or Falcon's abilities should be uncapped while Darkseid/Iron Monger/Ant Man are capped at 1. What's the worst situation here? Destiny unable to wound Ant-Man in endgame? Kyle Rayner out of markers, double engaged at a choke point by Falcon and Tombstone?

I mean, these may be auto-wins, but there are plenty of auto-shield powers, and these produce auto-wins with much more reliability than attack reduction does.

So really, I think you could just toss a "range cannot be reduced below 1" in Dazzler's power, leave Count Vertigo unchanged, and strike out every other minimum.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

So really, I think you could just toss a "range cannot be reduced below 1" in Dazzler's power, leave Count Vertigo unchanged, and strike out every other minimum.

I'd be fine with that.

There's actually also Fear Gas, Sleeping Gas, and the Cosmic Converter Belt that have minimums.

Fear Gas still needs an update anyway, to be rebranded as "Gas: Fear Gas".
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

So what I am making of this is that Top isn't actually a problem here. We should add a line stating "defense can't be reduced below 0" to this power and many more. Am I reading that right?
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

So what I am making of this is that Top isn't actually a problem here. We should add a line stating "defense can't be reduced below 0" to this power and many more. Am I reading that right?

No. We should get rid of the existing minimums on a few other powers, leave Top totally as-is, and update the C3G Book of Rules to clarify that you can't reduce defense below 0.

Only action item for Top is to maybe test him with Trickster + Vertigo to see how a triple-reduction stack goes.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

So what I am making of this is that Top isn't actually a problem here. We should add a line stating "defense can't be reduced below 0" to this power and many more. Am I reading that right?

I think what they are leaning to is just cutting the language that says "to a minimum of..." and just FAQ'ing if necessary that zero is a minimum for all but range which would still be 1.

I was the one pushing for the "defense can't be reduced below 1" and at one time I had support...

Should both of the defense reduction powers be "to a minimum of 1"

:bump: because I agree.

Should both of the defense reduction powers be "to a minimum of 1"

:bump: because I agree.


I'd be okay with that as well.

But I think that's no longer the case so it's just me.

I think Japes was suggesting we update the other cards as well so they reduced defense to a minimum of 1. Thinking about it some more and I'm not really sure that is really needed after all, nor is the cap at two blanks here. The only two figures we've identified that could stack the defense reduction both only roll 3 attack dice. One is an SA that is capped, so no more that -3 from any combo of skulls and blanks rolled, which is already the best case scenario when you roll 3 skulls anyway. Then the normal attack could be boosted to 4 dice rolled with high ground, but none of the stat boosters are really all that good a fit into a Rogue army build (Star-Lord isn't even an option here), so I'm not really worried about it ever being more than 4 dice. At which point the most if can do is -6 defense on a 1 skull attack, lots of figures have auto-wounding powers so no big deal here if he deals 1W to someone automatically. Really the best case would be 2 skulls and 2 blanks for -4 defense & 2 hits, that would be 2 auto-wounds on any 4 defense figure. That's a lot of set-up and good luck required to pull off though.

I think you missed a few. You can add Vertigo to that group as well since she works for all figures not just a factional one.

But to the point. If it's now just me that feels this is a negative play experience, so be it. I'll bow out. Thanks for taking the time to listen.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I definitely appreciate the sanity check. Everyone has different aspects of the game that they like and dislike. I love the idea of Flash villains teaming up to really beat him down and also think I would enjoy being the Flash and having to dodge around these lowly villains that become epic together.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

It's just an important (and thematic) reminder to Barry or Wally that they can't do it all alone and they need their friends to succeed against groups of villains who are calibrated to defeat them.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I definitely appreciate the sanity check. Everyone has different aspects of the game that they like and dislike. I love the idea of Flash villains teaming up to really beat him down and also think I would enjoy being the Flash and having to dodge around these lowly villains that become epic together.

Except he's not given the opportunity to try and dodge with 0 defense.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I definitely appreciate the sanity check. Everyone has different aspects of the game that they like and dislike. I love the idea of Flash villains teaming up to really beat him down and also think I would enjoy being the Flash and having to dodge around these lowly villains that become epic together.

Except he's not given the opportunity to try and dodge with 0 defense.
I meant having to strategically move around and bob and weave through the fight rather than dodge as in roll defense dice.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

IDK, if you can hit Flash with enough powers to make him not roll any defense dice then I feel that is thematic as Flash is so heavily effected that he can no longer concentrate enough to react with his super speed. I've seen Flash get 'paralyzed' into inaction quite a few times on his tv show.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I've signed myself up for the Top and can try out a game with Vertigo as an ally. Any thing else of concern here or just run him with Rogues?
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

I think that was about it.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

Alright I've worked out a few army ideas. I'll run the Vertigo/Trickster/Capt. Cold/Top triple threat and see what kind of damage I can do. Then I'll give the Top a spin in a Waller build.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

Cool. Also, “spin.” Hah!
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

Alright I've worked out a few army ideas. I'll run the Vertigo/Trickster/Capt. Cold/Top triple threat and see what kind of damage I can do. Then I'll give the Top a spin in a Waller build.
Thanks! This test with Vertigo is exactly what we need to see as per CRB discussion. :up:
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

Spoiler Alert!

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT (The Top)
Army Test 1
- Does it pass, Yes or No? yes
- What should be the unit's point value? In the end the swings of momentum balanced out a bit for a fairly close ending to the match so I guess 185 can’t be too far off even though Top didn’t have all that big of an impact.
- Give a brief preview. 4 Rogues try to take down the Flash and brought a few new friends along. Vertigo will double or triple down on the defense subtraction, while Mandarin is going to use his Rings to keep moving around some of the aura figures and dish out some auto-wounds to the Flash. Flash didn’t come alone though, his flying friends will try to swoop down and smash these negative aura units into the ground.
Map: Conflict Chernobyl (no glyphs)
Units: Capt. Cold, The Top @185, Trickster (Jesse), Capt. Boomerang (Digger), Vertigo, Mandarin (800) vs. Barry Allen Flash, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Hawkmen x1 (800)
Spoiler Alert!

Recap: Vertigo ended up going down first without having an impact on the game. I also feel as though I put too much stock into trying out the defense reduction powers as I relied on Capt. Cold’s leadership but he wasn’t getting it done. On the two bonding turns he triggered while Top was in play, I then opted to use Trickster in an attempt to make use of the double minus defense per shield set up but he failed to deal any wounds and then Top dropped without really getting a chance to shine himself. I should have just bonded with the Top there as he was the stronger bonding option. Hawkgirl was the star of the early game, then Flash was pretty hot on attack dice himself mid-game but that was balanced by not rolling a single blank on defense and falling hard. The Rogues engineered a crazy comeback attempt, but lost initiative and couldn’t stand up to Hawkman’s double attacks of 8. After this game I’m not too terrible concerned about all the defense reduction stacking, even though technically you could score -3 defense from 1 blank if everything was set up just right. It may have helped that I had Hawkgirl who could stealth fly and swoop whoever I wanted to, but I also think the other tester just had some hot dice.
_____________________________________________________________
Army Test 2
- Does it pass, Yes or No? yes
- What should be the unit's point value? Not much to go on here so I’ll run this game again and see if I can actually get you some useful data.
- Give a brief preview. Waller sends the Suicide Squad on a mission that puts them at odds with the Teen Titans. Gorilla-Man comes along to help Rick Flag keep the criminals in line. King Shark & Gorilla-Man will try to led the attack and keep the Titans distracted while The Top & Capt. Boomerang will try to reduce Nightwing’s defense down enough to take him out.
Map: Conflict Chernobyl (no glyphs)
Units: Amanda Waller, Rick Flag Jr., The Top @185, Capt. Boomerang (Mercer), King Shark, Gorilla-Man (1000) vs. Nightwing, Raven, Final Ruin Spell, Starfire, Changeling, Wonder Girl, Aqualad (1000)
Spoiler Alert!

Recap: This board does play fast and furious, Waller ends the first round with a double turn that starts to put blood in the water, now who wins initiative in R2 suddenly becomes very important. With the way things are set up a double turn of Top & Kingshark might be pretty devastating to the Titans. The Titans win initiative though 19 vs. 18, Nightwing activates Go! power, Raven pulls 3W off of Wonder Girl before she gets KO’ed, then att. Rick Flag from HG for a quick 3W, Starfire goes right after Top with her 4 attacks and KO’s him on the second one, then KO’s Boomerang with the 3rd att. and deals 2W to King Shark from HG with the 4th attack. This game is essentially over already thanks to Starfire rolling 8 skulls on 8 dice while Top & Boomerang roll 0 shields on 8 dice. I decide to just reroll the last 3 attacks from Starfire and see if I can instead keep the game going instead of calling it and maybe get some useful data from this match. Starfire still takes Top out though, it just takes all 3 attacks this time so I’m calling this game right here with Top already out of play. I’ll take a break and come back and rerun this match-up to see if I can get more useful data from the rematch.

Army Test 3
- Does it pass, Yes or No? yes
- What should be the unit's point value? .This one was a photo finish with either team having a chance to win at the end and the victor’s eking out the smallest possible win so I’d say 185 is looking pretty good. Top really had a pretty good showing here too.
- Give a brief preview. Rematch of the last game since Top didn’t last long in that one. Although I was planning on leading the attack with Gorrilla-Man & Kingshark, I didn’t account for just how much faster Rick Flag makes the SS move out and Gorrilla-Man never left the start zone. So this time I’m not going to use the double turn feature in round 1 at all and just move up the 3 SS members with Rick’s free move while Making sure Gorrilla-Man is out front this time.
Map: Conflict Chernobyl (no glyphs)
Units: Amanda Waller, Rick Flag Jr., The Top @185, Capt. Boomerang (Mercer), King Shark, Gorilla-Man (1000) vs. Nightwing, Raven, Final Ruin Spell, Starfire, Changeling, Wonder Girl, Aqualad (1000)
Spoiler Alert!

Recap: So glad I played this one out again, what an epic game! So much fun! This is what C3G is all about. Top & Boomerang were both really effective here with Waller giving them a double turn together or a turn with King Shark, and boosting Boomerang’s normal attack by 1 sometimes too. Once all the criminals were gone, Raven turned into Gorilla-Woman and beat Flag & Waller into the ground. Waller had a couple of chances to pull out the win herself but just couldn’t close the deal.
Final Thoughts: I used the Explosive SA in the first two games and it’s a nice option when you can’t get close, but man the Spinning Top SA is pretty sweet if you can get engaged with 2 or more figures. Even one on one it’s worth using over his normal attack to try and get in a second attack roll. That means you need to keep your own figures clear of him though, which is when the normal attack is still useful if that isn’t possible. On the defense negation power, I though the 6 range aura was pretty good, but in the end you still need to roll a blank to make use of it, and even then a lot of attacks still get blocked so it seem fine to me. Two pretty close games (both losses), one where his impact was limited and he was possibly underutilized, the other he had a pretty good showing and his team had a real shot to win, so I’d say 185 is spot on. I do think he’ll really like the Capt. Cold II design I have in the pipeline, the double Rogue turns with Waller was clearly an upgrade over Capt. Cold I’s occasional Rogue bonding, but Capt. Cold II will need to account for that cost.
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

Wow, fantastic tests! Great work YK!

These tests are incredibly detailed and having three games where the defense reduction combos didn't destroy everything is a great sanity check. I was expecting to need another set of tests, but I no longer think that is the case since these armies were well built and showed off what we didn't see in the other tests from Venoc and myself.

I propose a move to Final Editing at 185 points!


Oops! Have to get CRB approval! @dok @Soundwarp SG-1 @Dysole @weebaer
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Playtesting Phase)

Works for me! :up: I'll move on to where I'm more needed. :)
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Public Playtesting Phase)

Wow, fantastic tests! Great work YK!

These tests are incredibly detailed and having three games where the defense reduction combos didn't destroy everything is a great sanity check. I was expecting to need another set of tests, but I no longer think that is the case since these armies were well built and showed off what we didn't see in the other tests from Venoc and myself.

I propose a move to Final Editing at 185 points!


Oops! Have to get CRB approval! @dok @Soundwarp SG-1 @Dysole @weebaer
@dok @Soundwarp SG-1 @Dysole @weebaer Hugs and kisses :hugs::grouphug:
 
Re: The Book of The Top (Playtesting Phase)

While we're waiting on the CRB, any chance of a run down of match results for those of us too lazy to read through everything but willing to offer a pre-yea for Final Editing if everything looks good because we've been following just closely enough? :-D

I mean, um, a friend of mine wants to know ....
 
Back
Top