The Book of Silver Sable

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Design)

Image Titan when?

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Design)

Titan is the annoying one that's too on the nose to break into. At least it's for an enduring team with a lot of members though.

 

[Lazy Orang]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Design)

Outlaw strikes me as a class that just happens to be all DC right now, not that it was planned that way or should be that way. Plenty of Marvel Outlaws too.

It's mostly Secret Six characters, so there was a pretty tight vision for the class originally. That said, there are a couple outliers in the Outlaw ranks that just fit the vibe rather than being actual Secret Six members.

I'm not hot on classes being 1-1 with team membership anyway, though. I'd be down for a Marvel Mystery Men or a DC Runaway or what have you, so long as the character feels like a natural fit. (Would actively like to see those things, in fact)

This. Absolutely this. I honestly prefer it when class/personality synergies aren't made universe specific.
Excited to see this one. More Spider-Man support and Merc synergies are always cool, and she's a fairly notable gap in our canon.

 

[johnny139]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Design)

I think the problem with Marvel Mystery Men is that most of their Golden Age characters aren't really in that "archetype" - or at least, the ones that survived to modern times weren't. Namor, Human Torch, Captain America, none of them are running around city streets in a domino mask busting up crooks.

What I'm saying is we need is guys like Angel and Whizzer that no one cares about.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Design)

I've thought about Whizzer a few times over the years. Don't think I ever got anything down, though.

Agreed though, Marvel's golden age icons don't fit the archetype.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Design)

COMPETITIVE REVIEW BOARD CHECKLIST

Spoiler Alert!

Efficiency- Check to see if your design is providing armies with turns/moves/etc. to a degree that would make it difficult or impossible for an opponent to keep up with your output.

1. Does your design allow itself or figures to move/attack/take a turn/etc. instead of/in addition to your normal turn for revealing an Order Marker? Is it granting these benefits to too broad a range of units? Does it combine with other powers to create overly long or powerful chains of actions?

Pretty normal leadership activation stuff.

2. Does your design allow you to take actions during an opponent's turn? Can it combine with other powers to create tediously long reactions to enemy actions or a restrictive environment?

No.

3. Does your design allow you to rearrange your Order Markers or otherwise bypass the costs of Order Marker requirements on the special powers of other figures?

No.

4. Is your design doing anything outside of a player's turn, at the start or end of the round? Is the effect too powerful by itself or when combined with other powers?

No.

5. Does your design have any powers that trigger anytime it moves as opposed to only when it moves normally on its turn? Will it be too efficient when combined with figures that grant extra moves to figures?

No.

6. Is your design adding or subtracting from initiative rolls? Will it pair too easily with other figures that alter initiative or have powers triggering on the results of initiative rolls?

Yes, but no - needs a pretty specific build to really boost initiative a ton.

Potency- Check to see if your design is wounding/removing/etc. enemy figures, increasing the chances of other figures in your army doing so, or otherwise directly effecting the number of figures available to players to a degree that would make it difficult or impossible for an opponent to recover from.

1. Does your design have a chance to inflict wounds or destroy figures? Is it getting these chances too frequently or having to high a chance of success? Is the power balanced against expensive targets that can cause a massive swing in the game when destroyed?

No.

2. Is your design adding to the stats or 20-sided die rolls of other figures in your army? Is it a boosting a broad enough range of units effectively enough to become a 'mandatory' draft or inhibit future design space? Can it be combined with other boosts too easily?

No.

3. Will your design benefit from stat boosts or other enhancement to an overpowering degree? Will it restrict future growth within its faction or point cost by limiting available boosts to others?

No.

4. Does your design take control of enemy figures permanently or temporarily? Is it too difficult to for your opponent to regain control of their figure or recover from the losing the figure? Does the method of taking control expose the enemy figure to the powers of other figures in your army that can easily destroy it?

No.

5. Can your design heal itself or others or revive itself or others? Is it doing so in a way that an opponent cannot hope to overcome in certain scenarios?

No.

6. Does your design place enemy figures on its card or otherwise have an unconventional method of temporarily removing enemy figures from play? Will it guarantee your victory against a single remaining enemy figure?

No.


Chicanery- Check to see if your design is preventing your opponent from taking actions with too much ease or is otherwise causing negative play experience through tactics that make your opponent feel you're 'not playing fair'

1. Does your design restrict the movement of enemy figures, or allow you to move enemy figures? Can it do so in a way that results in an unwinnable scenario for your opponent if they are down to one figure, posses only figures with a range of 1, etc.? Can your design easily combine with other figures to greatly impede enemy figures or otherwise gain an excessive advantage?

No.

2. Does your design effect/change the placement of an enemy's Order Markers, or remove their Order Markers entirely? Can it force Order Markers to go onto cards that have no figures on the battlefield? Can your design easily combine with other figures to completely dictate the placement of an enemy's Order Markers or remove all of their Order Markers?

No.

3. Does your design inhibit your opponent from attacking your figures or make attacking a losing proposition? Are there scenarios or combinations that make your opponent totally unable to harm your figures through attacking?

No.

4. Does your design directly negate the powers of enemy figures or otherwise ignore them in a way that can completely disrupt the opponent's strategy or leave them feeling like they are stuck playing figures without special powers?

No.

5. Does your design become overly powerful in a podded group of figures, or provide significant benefit to your army without leaving your Start Zone?

No.

6. You can attack your own figures in Heroscape, does your design have any powers that will trigger off of doing so or otherwise wounding/destroying your own figures? Is this intentional on your part? Will the design be too efficient or potent when doing so?

No.

CONSISTENCY CHECKLIST (SHORT FORM)

Spoiler Alert!

Consistency Concerns
Name and Identity
Verify character is named in a way that is clear, accurate and feels consistent with the way other characters are named.

Yes.

Uniqueness and Type
Verify that the power text reflects the listed uniqueness and type, that the uniqueness fits the character, and that squad size is listed for squads.

Yes.

Left Box
If the character's species, class or personality is reused, verify that the character feels thematically consistent with other figures that have that species, class or personality. If they are not reused, verify that there is no pre-existing species, class or personality that would make more sense.

Yes.

Size and Height
Verify that the listed size and height are accurate. Standing the mini up next to a stack of tiles, and a few other minis of various sizes, is encouraged.

Believe so - will double check the mini being 4 or 5.

Super Strength and Flying
Verify that these special powers are present if they make sense, and not if they don't.

Yes.

New Powers - Names
Verify that any new powers are not using power names identical to, or very similar to, pre-existing powers. Verify that any new powers are actually new and not old powers with new names.

Yes.

New Powers - Effects
Verify that the effect and timing of all new powers is clear. Verify that any logical immunities, benefits, or weaknesses (whether those be necessary for thematic or mechanical reasons) are implemented: consider whether defensive powers that work against normal attacks should also work against special attacks, whether or not a power has an elemental component that some figures should resist, and whether or not unliving figures (such as Undead and Androids) should be affected.

Yes.

Reused Powers
Verify that the design is reusing powers in place of creating new ones, where reused powers could implement the same theme and mechanics with no differences or only trivial differences. Verify that any reused powers have the correct text.

Yes.

Power Level
Verify that the character's movement, attack, range, and defense (in conjunction with any special powers that enhance those stats) feel consistent with the capabilities of characters with analogous powers and abilities. Verify that the character falls into a similar point range to characters with comparative powers and abilities.

Yes.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (VOTE for Initial)

Let's send her to initial

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (VOTE for Initial)

200 is exactly what I got on the calculator.

yea

 

[Lord Pyre]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (VOTE for Initial)

Yea

 

[Tornado]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (VOTE for Initial)

Yea

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (VOTE for Initial)

Yea

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (VOTE for Initial)

This passes

 

[tcglkn]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

Yea

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

This extra passes

 

[tcglkn]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

Oops there were a few votes at the bottom of the page and I didn’t see there was another page till after I voted. I’m just excited for her okay?

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

No worries.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

Planning on running this tonight - looking to mainly futz around with Spider-Man and the Repentant guys, with the odd Merc/Outlaw thrown in. Titanium Man, Bane, Ragdoll, Nebula are the main "not recruited by Sable" cards that I'm looking at, but open to other thoughts.

 

[Yodaking]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

Domino likes the boost Bane offers. Silver Samurai is one of my favorite Mercs to draft. Teleportation Belt makes him pretty mobile and the SA gives you 3 attacks at -2 def, quite useful for chipping away at

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

Hmm, Silver Samurai is one I hadn't really looked at, but I might give him a shot. They might have some Silver Synergy.

Domino and Omega Red are both Mutant multi-normal-attackers... might be worth trying something like Sable/Bane/Domino/Omega. Going with Mutants also brings in the Mutant Sidekicks as filler/back-up bonding options, on top of what the mercs have (Nebula, Madripoor Mercs, Orion Arm Ravagers).

Seeing a lot of defense subtraction in the Merc/Outlaw web, as I survey the options. Not lasting defense subtraction that other figures can exploit, just for the figure's own attacks. Not sure I totally know what to do with that, but interesting mechanical note.

 

[tcglkn]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

I want to build a Silver Sable, Silver Samurai and Silver Surfer army now.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

Gotta get the DC guys to design Silver Swan and Silver St. Cloud.

(And we've also got Silver Banshee if you're willing to break alliteration)

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

Silver Swan is one of many classic Wonder Woman enemies I'm pining for.
Not as keen on Silver St. Cloud. We don't even have Vicki Vale yet!

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Waiting for Initial)

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Silver Sable

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Silver Sable @200, Red Hood, Spider-Man (Symbiote) (655) vs Scarlet Spider (Kaine), Robin (Dick), Batgirl (Cass), Speedy (Roy), Angel (Warren) (655)

Spoiler Alert!

There was a lot of dicking around in this match, with various figures not wanting to set off enemy counter powers. Spidey and Red Hood wrecked house pretty well, leaving Sable with just a couple Sidekicks to mop up.

Sable got super lucky in the endgame - she picked off Robin in just one attack, and attacked Batgirl six times before finally bringing her down - notably, over the course of those six attacks, she:
a) took only 2 wounds from Batgirl's return fire in that time.
b) never took any wounds from Defensive Premonition - don't know if I've ever seen anyone with <5 Attack get that lucky against Batgirl over that many attacks.

Win's a win, though! Sable eked it out.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done (Normal Attack): 0 wounds to Angel in 1 attack, 1 wound to Robin in 1 attack (destroyed), 2 wounds to Batgirl in 6 attacks (destroyed)
• The Outlaws: recruited Spider-Man, added 1 to initiative throughout. (Never made a difference)
• Wild Pack: used for turn management throughout.
• Acrobatic Dodge: disengaged from Batgirl 1 time.
• Damage Taken: 0 wounds from Speedy in 1 attack, 2 wounds from Batgirl in 7 attacks

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Silver Sable with 2 Life

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Silver Sable @200, Prowler, MACH-I, Deathstroke (810) vs Hand Ninja x3, Bullseye, Kirigi, Scorpion (Hanzo) (810)

Spoiler Alert!

Another build that's focused on Sable's recruits with an extra throw-in in the form of Deathstroke. Picked something fairly swarmy for the opposing army, to give Prowler a chance to be useful. Match-up feels like kind of a mixed bag, theoryscaping it out ahead of time - Merc/Outlaw team has some squad-busting tools for sure, but Sable's a soft target for the assassins, and there isn't a ton for her team to fall back on.

Sure enough, Sable and co. start out doing some damage and dropping a ninja or two with each turn, but Sable crumples hard when Bullseye starts taking shots at her. The team falls apart pretty quickly without her. Notably the ninja were having much better luck on attack rolls in addition to getting more of them, but the writing was on the wall.

Probably wouldn't go this high in points again for her without some more support units. Sable + 2 bonding figures is fun, 3 is a reach.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done (Normal Attack): not used
• The Outlaws: recruited MACH-I and Prowler, added to initiative throughout. (Never made a difference)
• Wild Pack: used for turn management throughout.
• Acrobatic Dodge: not used
• Damage Taken: 3 wounds from Bullseye in 2 attacks, 1 wound from Hand Ninja in 2 attacks

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): 4 Hand Ninja, Kirigi with full Life, Bullseye with 4 Life, Scorpion with 1 Life

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Silver Sable @200, Domino, Bane (I), Omega Red, Orion Arm Ravagers x2 (1125) vs Professor X, Angel (Warren), Jean Grey, Cable, Jubilee, Gorgon (Tomi) (1125)

Spoiler Alert!

Silver, Domino, and Omega Red managed to pod up around Bane early, and they were really successful at shutting down the X-Men heavy hitters; Gorgon got taken down from range, and Cable mostly whiffed a bunch of attack rolls against Silver. Things were looking bad for the X-Men, but then Jubilee dropped the hammer on the Merc team she hit em with a 3-skull and then a 4-skull attack roll that hit everyone around Bane. That took down Silver and put the X-Men back in the game; Jubilee and Angel managed to mop up the Mercs, since they killed a couple OMs with Sable.

That brought the game down to Warren, Chuck and Jubilee vs the Orion Arm Ravagers. Chuck had a couple wounds already, so the Ravagers really only had to crack him once. They took some casualties, but they did manage to get the job done. Could have gone either way at the end - Ravagers had their defense dice (both of em) come through lucky a couple times.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done (Normal Attack): 0 wounds to Gorgon in 1 attack, 2 wounds to Cable in 1 attack
• The Outlaws: no recruits.
• Wild Pack: used for turn management throughout.
• Acrobatic Dodge: disengaged from Angel 1 time
• Damage Taken: 2 wounds from Cable in 8 attacks, 0 wounds from Angel in 1 attack, 2 wounds from Jubilee in 2 special attacks (destroyed)

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): 3 Orion Arm Ravagers

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Strong leadership effect, but she's relatively fragile. I could see her points coming down a tick maybe. First impression is that the Misguided/Repentant/Spider-Man stuff works a bit better at lower point costs - not enough glue there for bigger games. I think that's okay with some big staples of Sable's Outlaws not designed yet.

 

[tcglkn]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Initial Posted)

That makes sense when you have only one figure that offers synergy to a group. She might work well with Avengers Spidey.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Silver Sable (Initial Posted)

Yeah, not super surprising, but wanted to get hands on and see how it felt. Combined it with my "how does Prowler feel" game so I could knock out two probably-not-great things at once.

I'd be curious to see her with most any of our Spider-Men.