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The Book of Sacred Band

dnutt99

Well-known member
The Book of Sacred Band
Zanafor's Discovery - Collection 4 - "Greeks and Vipers"​

478A4C42-C397-4CE4-AEFC-B34A752F2802.jpg
If you cannot see the Army Card graphic, check Hasbro's Unit Page for stats and special powers, plus "character biography" and other non-game unit info.

Character Bio: The gods smile on some, and on others they do not. That is what the members of Parmenio's Sacred Band would say. Parmenio formed his Sacred Band in secret, selecting only the toughest, most dedicated and courageous warriors. General Einar brought the members of the Sacred Band through a portal shortly after he saved Parmenio. Parmenio was happy to see his loyal soldiers. On Valahalla, they fight with Parmenio and Marcus Decimus Gallus. This Sacred Band is disciplined and they fight well with other disciplined troops. (Hasbro)
_________________________________________________________________
-Rulings and Clarifications-
  • - EINAR WARLORD BONDING : How Many Warlords
    How does Einar Warlord bonding work? Can I take a turn with all the Warlords that follow Einar I control first?
    No, you can take a free (move & attack) turn with any one Warlord that follows Einar before taking a turn with the Sacred Band. (Hasbro FAQ)

    - DISCIPLINED ARMY DEFENSE BONUS : Army With Disciplined and Non-Disciplined Units
    If my drafted non-disciplined figures are destroyed and I'm left with only disciplined figures on the board. Do I get the Disciplined Army Defense Bonus?
    Yes. (Hasbro FAQ)
_________________________________________________________________
-Combinations and Synergies-

Synergy Benefits Received

Synergy Benefits Offered
  • - EINAR WARLORD BONDING : Einar Warlord Units
    * Marcus Decimus Gallus
    * Parmenio
    * Valguard
C3V and SoV Custom Synergies
Spoiler Alert!

_________________________________________________________________
-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-

  • - TBA

_________________________________________________________________
-Heroscapers Community Contributions-

Power Ranking and Master Index
MKSentinel said:
Power Ranking
Sacred Band- If the Romans didn’t already exist, the Sacred Band might be used frequently. As it is now, they’re a bit
more restricting but more mobile. B

Sacred Band
How many to Buy?http://heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=4394
All non-Disciplined = Dead? http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=6936
And Historical Accuracy http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=10795

Unit Strategy Review
 
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I built a pretty good team using the sacred band incuded in it and was an all-Einar army:

400 point army:

Valguard
Marcus
Parmenio
Roman Legionnaires
Sacred Band

500 point army:

Valguard
Marcus
Parmenio
Romen Legionnaires x2
Sacred Band x2

The only weakness to these armies is range. But to avoid that you could replace the extra R.L. and S.B. for Roman Archers and Theracus.
 
These guys are really out shined by the Romans. The only advantage they have is being able to spread out while keeping 3 defence.
 
the price comes from the poor man's microcorp save. these guys saved my einar bacon the other day against a horde of zombies. too bad the save doesn't wash against braxas.

favorite bronze age army (500):

marcus
parmenio
2xband
2xromans

that last 110 slot is always a toss up. a couple of roman archers if you're running up against heroes with big life or airborne elite if you can draw your enemy into a flank. valguard was designed to run with parmenio but drake can also gain some discipline from the macedonian poster boy and that extra move makes him quite the assassin.
 
Roufus said:
Give them +1 move and a generic 'warlord bonding' and they're more competitive with the romans.
I kinda sorta like the +1 movement, but if they are granted 5 movement and are with Marcus, they're now moving 6 which outdistances them from both Parmenio and MDG. Or else they're holding back in order to stay adjacent to both generals.
When I've tried to do the Greek/Disciplined army, I found myself 290 points (SBx2, Parmenio, and MDG)into the draft to bolster the Sacred Band. Throw in the AE and Marcus becomes excellently justified.
But I would decline the generic bonding. It got too potent with the Legionnaires and then the SB are too similar.

My Disciplined army looks like:
Parmenio
SBx2 100
MDG
AE
(as much as I fight this draft urge, for 100 pts. they're solid) Krav converted to 'Disciplined'


Of course the opponent can counter with Reavers, reavers, reavers, but that's for another Book I'm hoping to get to tonight.
 
I think the Sacred Band has their uses but the Defy Death is tricky enough to make work that their usefulness is largely situational. For starters, you're pretty much wasting points unless you've got an all-disciplined army with Parmenio around and Parmenio has pretty lousy stats for 90 points.

Then you'll need Marcus or Valguard to do the heavy lifting since Parmenio's job is to baby-sit the Band. When it comes to range, the only common ranged squads you can have (and remain all-disciplined) are Samurai or Roman archers. That makes for very limited building options.

They aren't a squad you can plop on any old map and scenario and have them play competitively, but then again, thats what I really love about Heroscape; the units you draft are just as important as how you play them and how the dice roll.
 
LilMoochie said:
Then you'll need Marcus or Valguard to do the heavy lifting since Parmenio's job is to baby-sit the Band. When it comes to range, the only common ranged squads you can have (and remain all-disciplined) are Samurai or Roman archers. That makes for very limited building options.

The AE aren't common, but they're discaplined all the same. Murphy is discaplined to. And anyways, that's what parmy's for. However, don't let the discaplined thing restrict you. It's not all to worth it for only one extra defense die unless you have about 200 points of sacred band members.
 
That's a good point. There are also a lot of decent ranged unique squads out there that can be disciplined via Parmenio. And don't forget that an early kamikaze rush by a "undisciplined" figure could open up a late-game disciplined cleanup crew.
But I think that if you are going to use them, you really need to maximize the discplined defense bonus. Otherwise there's little benefit over the Romans.
 
Pondering...

LilMoochie said:
And don't forget that an early kamikaze rush by a "undisciplined" figure could open up a late-game disciplined cleanup crew.

That's a good point. If you want to make use of Viking spirits, that might work well. The Band is common, but if you want to pump someone else...

!Docker
 
Sargent_Drake_8 said:
LilMoochie said:
Then you'll need Marcus or Valguard to do the heavy lifting since Parmenio's job is to baby-sit the Band. When it comes to range, the only common ranged squads you can have (and remain all-disciplined) are Samurai or Roman archers. That makes for very limited building options.

The AE aren't common, but they're discaplined all the same. Murphy is discaplined to. And anyways, that's what parmy's for. However, don't let the discaplined thing restrict you. It's not all to worth it for only one extra defense die unless you have about 200 points of sacred band members.

If you weren't going to for the all-disciplined army anyway, you'd be much better off with Warriors of Ashra instead of the Sacred Band. There are only three of them, but they can move faster and last a lot longer.
 
Billtog said:
If you weren't going to for the all-disciplined army anyway, you'd be much better off with Warriors of Ashra instead of the Sacred Band. There are only three of them, but they can move faster and last a lot longer.

The disciplined bonus is just gravy if it fits with the rest of your army. The real reason to use the Band (or Romans) is the Bonding, which the warriors don't have. If you simply wanted a 50 point melee squad there are obvioulsy much better options, including the warriors.
 
The sacred band are great, because with every new release, they get better and easier to field. Just this release, we got Isamu, Ashigaru Yari, and Ashigaru Harquebus (sp).
 
NecroBlade said:
These guys are really out shined by the Romans. The only advantage they have is being able to spread out while keeping 3 defence.

Like everything in HeroScape, it all depends... For instance, the Sacred Band are a lot more effective against samurais than the Romans and have more staying power. The Defy Death power given to them by being adjacent to Parmenio gives them a 30% chance of surviving counter strikes and overall successful attacks. If you have to face samurais on hand to hand combat, use the Sacred Band over the Romans. I saw this happen yesterday so many times that it looked unreal how many times 15 was rolled (a 30% probability is not bad afterall). As such, if I'm facing samurais, in addition to using range against them I would recruit Parmenio and the Sacred Band no questions asked over the Romans any time.
 
Hero Hot Hatch said:
NecroBlade said:
These guys are really out shined by the Romans. The only advantage they have is being able to spread out while keeping 3 defence.

Like everything in HeroScape, it all depends... For instance, the Sacred Band are a lot more effective against samurais than the Romans and have more staying power. The Defy Death power given to them by being adjacent to Parmenio gives them a 30% chance of surviving counter strikes and overall successful attacks. If you have to face samurais on hand to hand combat, use the Sacred Band over the Romans. I saw this happen yesterday so many times that it looked unreal how many times 15 was rolled (a 30% probability is not bad afterall). As such, if I'm facing samurais in addition to using range I would recruit Parmenio and the Sacred Band no questions asked over the Romans any time.

Or you can reduce counterstrike by having Marcus with his attack bonus instead of Parmenio. Against ranged I would also prefer Marcus to Parmenio since the movement bonus will make it easier to engage the ranged threats. You can still use the Sacred Band it is just that the Sacred Band basically requires you to have an all disciplined force (which is difficult) and they have less bonding options than the Legionnaires.
 
The Sacred Band and Parmenio are the only figures that I own that I have never played. I own everything but Wave 7. The SB do not seem like they would be worthwhile at all with only one, or even two squads. Seems like you need at least three to get any real use out of them. And I only own two squads.
 
Oyhedwig said:
The Sacred Band and Parmenio are the only figures that I own that I have never played. I own everything but Wave 7. The SB do not seem like they would be worthwhile at all with only one, or even two squads. Seems like you need at least three to get any real use out of them. And I only own two squads.
They really have to be played with Marcus, to make up for their abysmal speed. They're not as bad as you might think, but the Romans are still much better because of their more versatile bonding.
 
NecroBlade said:
Oyhedwig said:
The Sacred Band and Parmenio are the only figures that I own that I have never played. I own everything but Wave 7. The SB do not seem like they would be worthwhile at all with only one, or even two squads. Seems like you need at least three to get any real use out of them. And I only own two squads.
They really have to be played with Marcus, to make up for their abysmal speed. They're not as bad as you might think, but the Romans are still much better because of their more versatile bonding.

I do agree with the "overall assessment" that the romans are more versatile. I actually like them more, too. I did a custom paint job on the shields (the stickers did not cut it for me). The Shield Wall is awsome, but it does not help with counter strike, which is exactly what I'm referring to. Specifically against samurais the sacred band (with Parmenio of course) has more staying power even without a complete disciplined army. Try it or play test it and you'll see. It's not theory. I've seen it and I've done it. That's if you want to risk hand to had combat against samurais, sacred band beats the romans.
 
Especially if you do what I did and boost their base speed +1 (and paramenios too). They shouldn't be the same speed as the highly armored knights of weston and roman legion.

Then they become MUCH better. They can spread out, and outpace the romans. They become... dare I say it... a worthwhile choice.


Most of my other edits (from about a year and a half ago) have since been removed due to more things coming out balancing them. But these guys just need that LITTLE fire under their butt to make them faster than the romans.
 
Hero Hot Hatch said:
he Shield Wall is awsome, but it does not help with counter strike, which is exactly what I'm referring to. Specifically against samurais the sacred band (with Parmenio of course) has more staying power even without a complete disciplined army. Try it or play test it and you'll see. It's not theory. I've seen it and I've done it. That's if you want to risk hand to had combat against samurais, sacred band beats the romans.

Again, not really. Both Marcus + Romans and Parmenio + Greeks do well against Samurai(or rather most commons do) but if anything the Romans are better. Yes Parmenio will save 30% of Greek counterstrike victims but what is even more affective is that Marcus reduces the chance of counterstrike by providing +1 attack. Plus the Romans will kill more of the Samurai then the Greeks will do because of the same +1 attack.
 
One additional attack die gives you a 50% of getting another skull vs. a 33% of getting a samurai getting a shield assuming that the samurais' counter strike is not boosted by Hatamoto, which would be a 50% chance. To keep it simple, and for illustrating purposes only, a 30% probability of surviving anything (of course unless destroyed, etc.) is better than the difference in probabilities, which is just under 17%. 30% is almost twice that difference. Believe me, if you have to face samurais on hand-to-hand combat you are better off with Greeks and Parmenio than with the Romans and Marcus DG. In fact, the presence of Hatamoto would virtually eliminate the additional attack by Romans when it comes to probabilities of neutralizing counter strike, but that presence does not impact at all the 30% of Defy Death 15.

I reiterate again that overall the Romans are "better", but not against samurais on most circumstances. There are always exceptions like all in HeroScape. Additionally, one can always boost the attack of the Greeks just like you do for the Romans. Again, this is not only theory. It works.
 
I'll take the better chance at killing someone over a chance at not dieing any day. If I have a better shot at killing them, there is also that much less chance they're going to Counter Strike, thus negating the need for Defy Death anyway. Face it, Marcus & the Romans are better.

Also, I'm no statistician, but I'm willing to bet someone will show up to prove your numbers wrong.
 
Hero Hot Hatch said:
One additional attack die gives you a 50% of getting another skull vs. a 33% of getting a samurai getting a shield assuming that the samurais' counter strike is not boosted by Hatamoto, which would be a 50% chance. To keep it simple, and for illustrating purposes only, a 30% probability of surviving anything (of course unless destroyed, etc.) is better than the difference in probabilities, which is just under 17%. 30% is almost twice that difference. Believe me, if you have to face samurais on hand-to-hand combat you are better off with Greeks and Parmenio than with the Romans and Marcus DG. In fact, the presence of Hatamoto would virtually eliminate the additional attack by Romans when it comes to probabilities of neutralizing counter strike, but that presence does not impact at all the 30% of Defy Death 15.

I reiterate again that overall the Romans are "better", but not against samurais on most circumstances. There are always exceptions like all in HeroScape. Additionally, one can always boost the attack of the Greeks just like you do for the Romans. Again, this is not only theory. It works.

I am not quite sure what you are doing with the probabilities there but whatever you are doing it is not correct. If a Greek attacks a defense 3 Samurai, he has a 20% chance of being counterstruck. Of course, if Parmenio is adjacent the Greek has a 30% of surviving(or 70% chance of dieing). Therefore an attack on a defense 3 Samurai will result in death by counterstrike is 14% (=0.2 * 0.7) of the time. A Roman boosted by Marcus to attack 4 will only suffer from counterstrike 12.3% of the time which is less often than a Greek will even with Defy Death. If you are fighting against defense 5 Samurai(Izumi or Kozuke) then the chances of dieing are almost exactly the same for both Romans and Greeks (27.9% vs. 27.7%) However, in all these cases the Romans will kill more than the Greeks due to their higher attack.

I am not sure what will happen if Hatomoto is in the game as I don't have probability tables generated for that but it is my opinion that if you are fighting against Hatomoto you probably are on your way to victory anyway.
 
I think it's weird to assume that Romans are always adjacent to Marcus and that Parmenio is always adjacent to the Sacred Band.

It's also weird to think that you can't bring Marcus with the Sacred Band.

The reason that Romans are better than the Sacred Band is because they have more bonding options and fewer drafting restrictions. That's it.
 
Jexik said:
I think it's weird to assume that Romans are always adjacent to Marcus and that Parmenio is always adjacent to the Sacred Band.
That's a good point. I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way, but I can never seem to have Parmenio in the right spot at the right time. This probably influences why I am practically never the Sacred Band.
 
Sisyphus said:
Hero Hot Hatch said:
One additional attack die gives you a 50% of getting another skull vs. a 33% of getting a samurai getting a shield assuming that the samurais' counter strike is not boosted by Hatamoto, which would be a 50% chance. To keep it simple, and for illustrating purposes only, a 30% probability of surviving anything (of course unless destroyed, etc.) is better than the difference in probabilities, which is just under 17%. 30% is almost twice that difference. Believe me, if you have to face samurais on hand-to-hand combat you are better off with Greeks and Parmenio than with the Romans and Marcus DG. In fact, the presence of Hatamoto would virtually eliminate the additional attack by Romans when it comes to probabilities of neutralizing counter strike, but that presence does not impact at all the 30% of Defy Death 15.

I reiterate again that overall the Romans are "better", but not against samurais on most circumstances. There are always exceptions like all in HeroScape. Additionally, one can always boost the attack of the Greeks just like you do for the Romans. Again, this is not only theory. It works.

I am not quite sure what you are doing with the probabilities there but whatever you are doing it is not correct. If a Greek attacks a defense 3 Samurai, he has a 20% chance of being counterstruck. Of course, if Parmenio is adjacent the Greek has a 30% of surviving(or 70% chance of dieing). Therefore an attack on a defense 3 Samurai will result in death by counterstrike is 14% (=0.2 * 0.7) of the time. A Roman boosted by Marcus to attack 4 will only suffer from counterstrike 12.3% of the time which is less often than a Greek will even with Defy Death. If you are fighting against defense 5 Samurai(Izumi or Kozuke) then the chances of dieing are almost exactly the same for both Romans and Greeks (27.9% vs. 27.7%) However, in all these cases the Romans will kill more than the Greeks due to their higher attack.

I am not sure what will happen if Hatomoto is in the game as I don't have probability tables generated for that but it is my opinion that if you are fighting against Hatomoto you probably are on your way to victory anyway.

First, the possibility of surviving allows further attacks down the road. You can't deny the value of that. Moreover, the samurais are dangerous when attacked (fitting the rules like adjacent, which is the only way a Greek or a Legionaire can kill a Samurai) as we all know, which is what is behind this discussion. Exactly which unit is better against Samurais, Romans or Greeks with Marcus DG and Parmenio, respectively. Nothing else is being discussed. This is very specific. I could add the Disciplined Army Defense Bonus, but then you'll add the Shield Wall and that's another set of numbers.

I simplified the computation for illustration purposes. If you don't believe the theory, play test them all you want and you'll see. You don't even need to play test with Greek's Disciplined Army Defense Bonus, which gives the Greeks 3 defense vs. the Romans paltry 2.

You can do all the statistics that you want but you missed the big picture. Run the numbers again. Nevertheless, if you want more detailed statistics, give me some time and I'll give them to you (maybe in a week or so). For now, without resulting in detailed statistics: assuming that a Greek attacks a Tagawa Samurai and gets only 1 skull. The Tagawa samurai can get two shields, but the Greek adjacent to Parmenio still has a 30% chance of survival, while a Roman will immediately be toast. 30% is no peanuts after literally being dead, which is what in fact a Roman would be. The additional attack that the Romans get (assuming the Greek does not have it too) falls short in all scenarios of counter strike. They would need TWO additional attacks to have superior staying power against the same counter strike consistently. Just ONE will NOT do it.

To put it in the other extreme:

The Greek gets three skulls, which maximizes the base Greek attack and has a probability of (feel free to refresh my Stats 101 that I took 20 years ago) 0.5*0.5*0.5 = 12.5%.

The Roman gets four skulls, which maximazes the boosted attack and has a probability of 6.25%. The probability of a Roman getting 4 skulls is half the probability of a Greek getting 3 skulls. You are staking your survival ability on a half probability under this particular example?

The Tagawa samurai gets 4 shields. The Greek would be dead, but it still has a 30% probability of surviving. Whether the Greek got 1, 2 or 3 skulls in the initial attack becomes automatically meaningless. However, your Roman is praying for a 6.25% chance of getting 4 skulls.

Another example, the Tagawa samurai gets 5 shields (admittedly a very low probability). The Greek would be dead, but it still has a 30% probability of surviving. Your Roman is dead. And on and on and on. The Romans end up dead under more scenarios against Counter Strike than do the Greeks. Defy Death is 30% chance of survival under any successful Counter Strike scenario.

There are many different ways of looking at this. The Romans have a 50% chance of getting one skull and a 25% chance of getting two, a 12.5% of getting three and a 6.25% of getting 4. The 30% probability that the Greeks have of Defying Death after an effective Counter Strike is superior to three of those four possibilities.

I'm telling you that the theory fits the practice. I never used the Greeks until a weeks ago and it worked many times, while the Romans fell easier specifically against samurais. I'm paranoid about attacking a Samurai and getting killed in the process instead. I love the samurais, but I hate it when they kill me with Counter Strike.

This is interesting and intellectually stimulating discussion. That's what I love about HeroScape. I rarely take anything personal. I want to know the truth. It's not simply a mindless game. If and when I get the statistics run in Excel or something like that, I'll post them here.
 
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