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The Book of Sabretooth

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Yeah, but that's a wound that stops him from healing other wounds he's accumulating is my point.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

OMG, that looks good.

Question for Hama, how does a +1 to defense and a +1 to Life only mean a +20 to the points of Wolverine? Are you confident in this cost and the balance of the design? Are you worried at all that maybe he is too difficult for lots of units to kill off? Are you sure a life of 7 is balanced or even Thematic for the character?

~ Griffin, nervously

Wolverine is 280 - he's only +10 to his points. I'm guessing that he wouldn't have the same offensive potential against other heroes that Wolverine has and Heroes are most of our game. He does seem to have more survivability, but Devastating Pounce wipes a good deal of that advantage out by tempting you to take a lot of wounds to use it.

He's healing the wound that he takes by not destroying the figure at the end of his turn. The only danger for him is that he is now adjacent to someone who may attack him next turn.

Well Griff, I understand your concern. Here's what happened, when Sabretooth started with 4 def and 6 lives like Wolverine, he was totally getting destroyed by Wolverine, Colossus and Green Goblin. I upped his defense to 5 and it got better by not great. So I tried bumping the life to 7 and things got more balanced. I figured either bump his stats or lower his price down to 250ish.

Sure he does great against squads, but we adjusted Bloodlust so he can't move as far and can't use Pounce after the first attack. This helped and spreading squaddies out helped limit the effects to a degree, but it's still pretty nasty at times.

The thing was to try to balance him vs so that he wasn't getting owned by heroes at lower cost all the time just so that he wasn't too good vs. squads. Squads with bonding though will have better chance as Sabes will also have to face the attack of a hero as well as multiple attacks from squads.

The difference between Sabes and Wolvie lies in Wolvies offensive nastiness that allows him to destroy a figure he engages much easier than Sabretooth. Sure Sabes has a ranged attack and special power that bypasses special defenses. The ranged attack is a plus over Wolvie but they do have to have their differences as we don't want clones, and Wolvies -2 to opponent's defense helps a lot against some special defenses like Counter Strike etc. Wolverine will heal a wound off every time he takes a turn, whereas Sabretooth will often not because of failed kill on Pounce. That 1 wound healed off could make the difference when facing a 3 or 4 wound attack. Also, when Wolvie is engaged with an opponent, even his unwounded single 4 attack with -2 to defense to oppnent is better than Sabes' 5 attack, as Sabes can't use Pounce vs. an adjacent opponent (though he can leave engagement for possible wound and Pounce for another possible wound). Wolvie with 2 or more wounds is so much more likely to kill a HH opponent than Sabretooth.

I had tested him at 270 and my army tests were fairly balanced, particularly the second one where Hawkman survived with 3 wounds for the opposing team. The first army test had Sabes with the Outcasts vs. Prof X and X-Men. Outcasts just don't match up as Wolvie and Prof X survived with 0 wounds to win for the opposing team. So with Sabes at 270, his team lost both army tests for me. Now he didn't go against a bunch of squaddies for easy pickings, but that's not likely to happen often in Superheroscape anyway.

I don't know what else to say, I had made my adjustments to his stats to keep him from getting owned by every hero out there at 200 + points. :shrug:

Yeah, but that's a wound that stops him from healing other wounds he's accumulating is my point.

Exactly what was happening. Sure he'd heal off the Pounce wound, but he wouldn't heal off others and they'd accumulate faster, especially when he used his pounce vs. heroes a lot. So you'd either not use Pounce and lose it's potential and heal wounds off or use Pounce and hope to kill the opponent before your wounds accumulate too much and then heal later perhaps.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Another major thing is Wolverine gets multiple attacks just for having wounds - Sabretooth has to destroy a figure to get multiple attacks, which is a LOT harder to pull off against heroes.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

His high defense and life combined with Healing Factor X is what is scaring me the most. I mean how well does he do against Superman head on? It seems that Sabertooth is going to win that battle at least fifty percent of the time, especially with that SA that bypasses defense powers.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

His high defense and life combined with Healing Factor X is what is scaring me the most. I mean how well does he do against Superman head on? It seems that Sabertooth is going to win that battle at least fifty percent of the time, especially with that SA that bypasses defense powers.

I'll run some more testing later. I was basing a lot of what I did on tests vs. opponent's 280 and less that he was getting spanked by.

These stats and powers have been up for a long time now and past ERB and went through 2 other playests without this concern being brought up. Why wait until now for all the concern when nothing has changed since I finished the initial playtest? We can bump his cost to 350 just to be safe though.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

I'd vote nay on 350. :p That's definitely got to be overkill. I think that if Griff is this concerned, it would behoove him to run an army test or two with Sabretooth and see how he plays.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

His high defense and life combined with Healing Factor X is what is scaring me the most. I mean how well does he do against Superman head on? It seems that Sabertooth is going to win that battle at least fifty percent of the time, especially with that SA that bypasses defense powers.

I'll run some more testing later. I was basing a lot of what I did on tests vs. opponent's 280 and less that he was getting spanked by.

These stats and powers have been up for a long time now and past ERB and went through 2 other playests without this concern being brought up. Why wait until now for all the concern when nothing has changed since I finished the initial playtest? We can bump his cost to 350 just to be safe though.
I have expressed concern several times, even starting with the front page and the inclusion of Healing Factor X. I love the design, I really do, I am just a tad concerned with the power level of the guy. Tell you what, I will run a few random tests just to get some results of my own. This is sort of like a last minute Darkseid test just to be sure... however in that case I should have pushed for a 10 or 20 point increase on him. :? :lol:
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

I think that's the right approach - and in theoryscaping based on past play with Wolverine and Deadpool I do share some level of your concern, I was just attempting to balance your arguments by offering the other side of things. :)
I really wish I could run some tests as well to help with this, but I'm going to have to trust you guys (and I do!).
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

I'd vote nay on 350. :p That's definitely got to be overkill. I think that if Griff is this concerned, it would behoove him to run an army test or two with Sabretooth and see how he plays.
Yeah 350 is extreme, and I think Hambone may have been trying to be a bit of wise guy. :p

But you did :ninja: me on the playtesting, that is what I am about to do right now.

Hahma, I am not trying to be difficult, I am just a bit concerned, and I don't mind playtesting to help disprove my concerns. You know I am always willing to help. :)
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

And that's why we love ya. :)
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

I think that's the right approach - and in theoryscaping based on past play with Wolverine and Deadpool I do share some level of your concern, I was just attempting to balance your arguments by offering the other side of things. :)
I really wish I could run some tests as well to help with this, but I'm going to have to trust you guys (and I do!).
Yeah those two can really get out of control and dominate a game, that is why I am being VERY cautious here. I just want to be sure that we are all comfortable with the power level.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

For real. That level of life/defense/and Healing Factor X scared me a bit as well, but I haven't seen any testing indicate an issue.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Sabertooth VS

Superman - Superman wins with 4 wounds
Superman - Superman wins with 5 wounds

Supergirl - Sabertooth wins with 4 wounds
Supergirl - Supergirl wins with 5 wounds

Green Lantern (Hal) - GL wins with 3 wounds and 2 PBs.

I think we are good on his balance against the bigger guys. :up:
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

So far so good! :) I really think he has much less offensive potential overall against heroes than Deadpool or Wolverine, which will hold him back some (i.e. power check him).
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Sorry to be a wiseguy, I just was having a bad morning and have a ton things to do in the basement before the drywall guys come next Friday to do their thing. If you find that he needs to be bumped up to 300, I'll support that. I guess the concern I have is with figures like this that we will run into as we go, we can't adjust the cost of earlier released figures so we end up adjusting the newest guy up because of how he does when played with earlier released units, whereas the previous released units can play more independently based on points and the newer ones only max out when playing in conjunction with the previously released ones. So Sabretooth might be priced higher because of potential with Wolvie and Deadpool while those guys cost isn't based on playing with Sabretooth.

Either way, I trust your conclusions and it's always better to be safe than sorry. :D
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Well, so far, Griff's results support him staying at 290 in my opinion. :)
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Yeah, I think I was just spazzing a bit and things are fine to move on.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Nah, it's just an extra layer of quality control and I think it's a good thing. :) But 290 is sounding great now!
Where are we at on this one, Whitey?
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Well. lots of time has passed, but there are a couple of Yea's missing...

I've added Griff's HH tests to the OP.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

If you'd proposed it, then it would've passed on time, lol. Spidey abstains by the way.
 
Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Grr ... this is what I get for typing while I'm hanging out with people. :)
So, wait, we're in Final Editing now, right ... ?
 
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