The Book of Sabretooth

[Griffin]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

FINAL THOUGHTS: (1) He seems ABOUT right to me; (2)perhaps SLIGHTLY overcosted. He's a monster against squads, no doubt, (3)and about even with most figures in his range, even if he loses more often than he wins. (4)I think 280 would be ideal, (5)but he's passable at 290.

This confuses the heck out of me....

1. he is balanced
2. he is too expensive
3. he is balanced
4. he should cost more
5. maybe he should cost even more

 

[A3n]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

FINAL THOUGHTS: (1) He seems ABOUT right to me; (2)perhaps SLIGHTLY overcosted. He's a monster against squads, no doubt, (3)and about even with most figures in his range, even if he loses more often than he wins. (4)I think 280 would be ideal, (5)but he's passable at 290.

This confuses the heck out of me....

1. he is balanced
2. he is too expensive
3. he is balanced
4. he should cost more
5. maybe he should cost even more

I don't think you're alone there.

 

[whitestuff]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

Second playtest in...

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Sabretooth

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
YES

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
YES

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
YES

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
YES

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
YES

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
YES

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
YES

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
YES

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
YES

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
YES

- Heavy Hitter or Mid-Level Hero/ Does it pass? YES, AT 300 INSTEAD OF 290.

Spoiler Alert!

TEST 1
Map: Sidewinder
Units: Sabretooth vs. Wolverine
Wolverine wins with 4 Wounds.

TEST 2
Map: Sidewinder
Units: Sabretooth vs. Deadpool
Sabretooth wins with 3 Wounds.

TEST 3
Map: Sidewinder
Units: Sabretooth vs. Solomon Grundy
Sabretooth wins with 0 Wounds.

TEST 4
Map: Sidewinder
Units: Sabretooth vs. Martian Manhunter
Martian Manhunter wins with 4 Wounds.

TEST 5
Map: Sidewinder
Units: Sabretooth vs. Magneto
Sabretooth wins with 0 Wounds.

_____________________________________________________________
- Squad / Does it pass? YES
Map: Sidewinder
Units: Sabretooth vs. 2X Einar Imperium​

Spoiler Alert!

Sabretooth wins with 6 Wounds.

_____________________________________________________________
- Army Test/ Does it pass? YES
Map: Sidewinder
Units: Deadpool, Wolverine, and Sabretooth (855) VS. Thor, Superman, and Drow Chainfighter (855)​

Spoiler Alert!

ROUND ONE

- Sabretooth moves up.

- Superman moves up and attacks Sabretooth for 3 Wounds.

- Deadpool moves up and attacks Superman for 2 Wounds.

- Thor moves up and uses Mjolnir Special Attack on Sabretooth for 1 Wound.

- Wolverine moves up and attacks Superman for 1 Wound.

- Drow moves up. Healing X Special Power heals Sabretooth of one wound.

ROUND TWO

- Superman attacks Sabretooth for 2 Wounds.

- Sabretooth moves onto high ground, and defeats Superman.

- Thor moves up, and fails God of Thunder Strike.

- Deadpool double attacks Thor, missing the first, but nailing the second for 2 Wounds.

- Thor defeats Sabretooth.

- Wolverine attacks Thor for 3 Wounds.

ROUND THREE

- Thor moves onto high ground, and attacks Wolverine for 2 Wounds, and an extra 1 Wound on Knockback.

- Wolverine moves up, and attacks Thor for 1 Wound.

- Thor attacks Wolverine with 3 Wounds, and beats him on the knockback.

- Deadpool moves onto high ground, but still misses Thor.

- Thor moves up, and hits Deadpool with 1 Wound.

- Wolverine's turn.

ROUND FOUR

- Deadpool attacks Thor, but misses both shots.

- Thor attacks Deadpool for 2 Wounds, with an extra wound on Knockback.

- Deadpool attacks Thor again, and misses.

- Thor defeats Deadpool.

Thor: 6/8 Wounds
Drow: 0/1 Wounds.

_____________________________________________________________
- Army Test/ Does it pass? YES
Map:
Units: Sabretooth, Mystique, Pyro, and Toad (670) VS. Killowog, and Hal Jordan (660)​

Spoiler Alert!

ROUND ONE

- Sabretooth moves up.

- Killowog moves onto high ground and attacks Sabretooth for 5 Wounds.

- Mystique moves up and attacks Killowog for 2 Wounds.

- Hal moves onto high ground, and defeats Sabretooth.

- Toad moves up, before giving Hal a Tounge Lashing right into Mystiques Engagement Strike, but misses his Caustic Spit attack.

- Killowog moves up and one-shot defeats Mystique.

ROUND TWO

- Pyro misses with his Living Flames Special Attack on Killowog.

- Killowog one-shots Pyro with ALL 8 SKULLS!!!

- Pyro's Turn

- Killowog one-shot defeats Toad, who happened to whiff.

Killowog: 2/5 Wounds.
Hal: 1/4 Wounds.

Feeling that last test was a whiff and all-skulls fest, I redid it;

Spoiler Alert!

ROUND ONE

- Killowog moves up.

- Sabretooth moves up, and Pounces onto Killowog for 3 Wounds.

- Hal moves up, and attacks Sabretooth for 2 Wounds.

- Mystique moves up, and defeats Killowog.

- Killowog's Turn

- Pyro blasts Hal with Living Flames, but misses while Sabretooth heals.

ROUND TWO

- Sabretooth Pounces Hal, and gets all skulls, but Hal uses a Power Shield.

- Hal moves to height, but misses Sabretooth.

- Sabretooth Pounces Hal, 5 skulls, and is blocked by another Power Shield.

- Hal attacks, then he Charges Fearlessly, not once, but twice; 3 Wounds.

- Sabretooth disengages, and dodges the strike, before pouncing Hal for 2 Wounds.

- Hal defeats Sabretooth.

ROUND THREE

- Pyro uses Living Flames on Hal for 1 Wound.

- Hal moves up, and attacks, but misses, Mystique.

- Mystique attacks Hal, but only hits a Power Shield.

- Hal moves to height, but still misses Mystique.

- Mystique attacks, but hits the last Power Shield.

- Having no choice, Hal charges; he gets pas Engagement Strike, but misses.

ROUND FOUR

- Mystique misses Hal.

- Hal attacks Mystique for 1 Wound.

- Mystique finishes Hal off.

I found this to be a little light on his feeling so I PM'ed him back...

C3G PLAY TEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Sabretooth

The boys will ask this of me so I'll ask you first...

What were your thoughts? You said that his points need to go up to 300 but why? What were his strengths/weaknesses? Anything cool happen with him? Did you feel the character's theme in his abilities? Any comments?

~whitestuff

Let's see....

I find he's not a figure to take on enemies and expect to win if they're brand new. He seemed more like he would just either soften them up for the rest of the army, or clean them up. Looking at how he did in the heavy unit playtests, he seemed like he would fit better at 300, compared to what he could and couldn't beat. Anyhing cool...hmm..well, my favorite strategy is to Pounce an enemy, and if I can, go onto an adjacent height advantage, or to disengage, then return with a Pounce.

On Theme...The ONLY problem I found was he seemed a little...kamikaze. From my understanding, he prefers living to winning, and I'm not sure about that...he's not quite kamikaze, but he DOES get rid of his Healing ability for a turn to use Pounce. I love, however, how he doesn't fit into any synergys perfectly. He's a good all around unit, so he can fit in most armies, but he won't have active synergy except with Healing X.

There you go.

*EDIT*

He has added this...

On the 300 points, since I sort of rambled last PM...1V1 against heroes, he's overcosted. In an army, he's about perfect. So maybe 295?

 

[Griffin]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

OK, I just realized the confusion with why the Allies are referencing 290 points..... Whitey, you haven't updated the front page with Hahma's 270 calculation and so that is also what you sent out to the allies. I did the same thing on the Hired Guns last week.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

I think 280 or 285 might be his best destination after reading through all these tests.

 

[Griffin]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

275 or 280

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

280 sounds good. Let him be Wolverine's mirror in Brotherhood armies.

 

[NecroBlade]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

My concern with 280 is Sabertooth handing 4 squads of 4th their butts. He did fine in the HH tests as well, and even went toe-to-toe with the big boys in army tests (Superman, Thor, Magneto, GLs). The playtesters' 290 or more may be right.

 

[Hahma]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

My concern with 280 is Sabertooth handing 4 squads of 4th their butts. He did fine in the HH tests as well, and even went toe-to-toe with the big boys in army tests (Superman, Thor, Magneto, GLs). The playtesters' 290 or more may be right.

He may be a squad killer, but he seems to not be great against equal points of Heavy Hitters. Grundy is not worth anywhere near 290 when he's 1v1 and can't come back, Magneto isn't worth his points 1v1 vs. HH IMO and if Wonder Woman can't get a Lasso working and goes against a HH with a ranged special attack, then she's not quite 300 IMO.

I'm not so much concerned about what he does vs. the 4th as I'm sure over time there would be times where W+F would tear him up. But more importantly, I'm more concerned about how he does in the Superscape world. While he would surely do good vs. HYDRA Agents, Hand Ninja etc, they have bonding and he'd have to face not only their attacks, but the Unique Hero that they bond with and he might not fair quite as well.

He's going to be facing heroes more than squads more times than not and since he's not great against them, I kind of think that balances things out a little. I think 280 would be best for the situations he'd be facing most of the time as opposed to the rare all squad opponent.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

I agree with that analysis, Hahma. Also, we have plenty of heroes that are costed at a level where they can't reliably take out their points worth of squads - I don't mind seeing a unit that's a little better against squads than their points worth. Krug's way better against his points worth of heroes and no one takes issue with that.

 

[Griffin]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

What Hahma said. And like Bats, I am OK with a Hero slipping through our process every once in a while that can take on his points in squads, that is what SUPERheroes are all about, being more "super" than the average Joes.

 

[whitestuff]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

So... any other discussions to have or do I propose Sabertooth moves on to final editing at 280 points?

 

[Griffin]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

Preemptive yea.

 

[Hahma]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

preemptive yea

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

Preemptive yea!

 

[whitestuff]

Re: Sabretooth - Design Phase

Just need some more preemptives...

 

[A3n]

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Propose it already!

Yea

 

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Pre-meditated Yea.

 

[whitestuff]

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Propose it already!

Yea

I'm trying to ride it out on preemptives...

 

[A3n]

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Is his size really 6?

I wouldn't have thought that he would be in height range of Hulk.

Cheers

 

[A3n]

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Propose it already!

Yea

I'm trying to ride it out on preemptives...

Well pre-empt

 

[Griffin]

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

OMG, that looks good.

Question for Hama, how does a +1 to defense and a +1 to Life only mean a +20 to the points of Wolverine? Are you confident in this cost and the balance of the design? Are you worried at all that maybe he is too difficult for lots of units to kill off? Are you sure a life of 7 is balanced or even Thematic for the character?

~ Griffin, nervously

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

Propose it already!

Yea

I'm trying to ride it out on preemptives...

I think you actually had a vote pass through without a proposal once ... you just voted yea instead of proposing anything ...

Is his size really 6?

I wouldn't have thought that he would be in height range of Hulk.

Cheers

Yeah, that does seem high, but I don't have the minis available to compare ... hmm.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

OMG, that looks good.

Question for Hama, how does a +1 to defense and a +1 to Life only mean a +20 to the points of Wolverine? Are you confident in this cost and the balance of the design? Are you worried at all that maybe he is too difficult for lots of units to kill off? Are you sure a life of 7 is balanced or even Thematic for the character?

~ Griffin, nervously

Wolverine is 280 - he's only +10 to his points. I'm guessing that he wouldn't have the same offensive potential against other heroes that Wolverine has and Heroes are most of our game. He does seem to have more survivability, but Devastating Pounce wipes a good deal of that advantage out by tempting you to take a lot of wounds to use it.

 

[SirGalahad]

Re: Sabretooth - Finalizing Phase - need votes

OMG, that looks good.

Question for Hama, how does a +1 to defense and a +1 to Life only mean a +20 to the points of Wolverine? Are you confident in this cost and the balance of the design? Are you worried at all that maybe he is too difficult for lots of units to kill off? Are you sure a life of 7 is balanced or even Thematic for the character?

~ Griffin, nervously

Wolverine is 280 - he's only +10 to his points. I'm guessing that he wouldn't have the same offensive potential against other heroes that Wolverine has and Heroes are most of our game. He does seem to have more survivability, but Devastating Pounce wipes a good deal of that advantage out by tempting you to take a lot of wounds to use it.

He's healing the wound that he takes by not destroying the figure at the end of his turn. The only danger for him is that he is now adjacent to someone who may attack him next turn.