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The Book of Rogues Revolution

Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Didn't manage to update the SP with the new Flash Healing, but doesn't look like it would have affected things much in Ark's games. Powers seem like they do a good amount to let the ball be in Team Flash's court without being too overbearing.

Do we want to let this sit for one more, or are we feeling good to move forward? I feel satisfied with it, but if people would rather wait and see at least one more game with a bigger speedster team I could see holding off.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Looks solid enough to me and Archie and Ark both give it a pass, so I'm personally happy to vote for it to move forward. Pre-yea if it helps. :-D

I'll have to try this out when working on Team Flash stuff as a team filler.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Looks like you changed both the Back to Lockup and Flash Time powers...

C’mon man. :lol:
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Arkham said:
Looks like you changed both the Back to Lockup and Flash Time powers...

C’mon man. :lol:
Click to expand...

Yes, this week has been a very big reminder of my lack of remembering to update the SP (and I just didn't get a chance to update it last night when Archie tested).

Flash Time ultimately wouldn't have affected your game. Do you think Flash Healing would have changed much? Didn't seem like it based on your notes.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

The healing bit is just a very different power in general. One has you hammering down on one Rogue to try and get the heal in time for that round, and sent back to the start zone for a bit of safety on their following turn. The other has all Speedsters healing just by not being engaged which means you can just run away, dodge, or bonus move away. They would play completely differently.

Yes, in my games I used 1 figure, but it still changes the approach, and the following turn possibilities for the opposing team.

I’m sure it’s still fine at 250 based on Archie’s games, but it’s not exactly a minor difference. :lol:
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Hmm, guess I'm rescinding my pre-yea. :p
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

I more meant it from the perspective that it looked like Flash basically died to a whiff rather than the slow whittling down of health. It is definitely different and requires some different play. Seeing the difference was more why I left it open for at least one more test, as I don't know that it would be tremendously different in solo games, but is a definite difference in a team of Speedsters.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

I feel like this is a type of thing that doesn't need a lot of testing, personally. It's limited to a very specific matchup and there have been 7 games with it overall (counting out Ark's games).
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

It may be fine as-is. My gripe is less on additional testing being needed, and more on testing(and enjoying) a design that’s not even relevant. :lol:

I also just think the version I played is more interesting than the current one, as it pertains to the healing at least, as I feel like it encourages you to stay on your opponent rather than play keep away. Speedsters are a pest as it is, and the current version could see a team of them just wasting time running out of range to burn rounds to heal. The previous one doesn’t allow for that, as you actively need to go into the fray to risk it for the biscuit.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Arkham said:
It may be fine as-is. My gripe is less on additional testing being needed, and more on testing(and enjoying) a design that’s not even relevant. :lol:

I also just think the version I played is more interesting than the current one, as it pertains to the healing at least, as I feel like it encourages you to stay on your opponent rather than play keep away. Speedsters are a pest as it is, and the current version could see a team of them just wasting time running out of range to burn rounds to heal. The previous one doesn’t allow for that, as you actively need to go into the fray to risk it for the biscuit.
Click to expand...

I actually do fairly agree with that, but my main beef was it felt like it turned into Special Attack spam. Do you think there's a better medium between the two?
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

What do you mean by that? In what way was it “special attack spam”?
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

When the healing was tied to taking out a Rogue, it very frequently felt like the best course of action was to just use Fist Fusillade over and over and over. The "not engaged" contingency on healing made you have to choose at least a little bit because you could then move after attacking and get a heal in.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Well, sure, for that one specific Flash that's true, but there are other Speedster options. And overall it seems possibly better to have a Speedster up in the action offensively than kiting (which would be the normal attack, extra movement option).
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

I special attack spammed even with the healing being tied to unengaged. Flash kills the fragile Rogues quickly enough anyway. If multiple Rogues engaged Flash to keep him engaged, that meant that Flash could use any extra Fist Fusillade attacks on those Rogues.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Well hmm. So it doesn't seem like it actually in practice fixed what I wanted it to fix. I do think Flash Time update alone might've been enough for scaling the Speedsters, so really the healing can just go to what plays best/feels better theme-wise.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Since we have two powers with Flash in the name now, I kinda like the name Accelerated Healing.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Scenario (Breaking Out)

How would people feel about this middle ground? A little renaming, but blending the "take out foes" part of the healing with the multiple people can heal thing.

LordVenoc said:
NAME = ROGUES REVOLUTION
REQUIREMENT = Speed Force or Superspeed Special Power
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE SCENARIO

SCENARIO CONDITIONS:
All Unique Heroes with the Speed Force or Superspeed Special Powers in your army are considered Speedsters.
Opponent must have at least one Rogue in their army.

POINTS = 250

BACK IN A FLASH
After a Speedster you control destroys an opponent's Unique Rogue Hero, you may immediately place your figure in an empty space in your start zone. Figures placed this way do not receive any leaving engagement attacks. After placing a figure in this way you may remove one Wound Marker from that Speedster’s army card. Figure's may only be affected by Back in a Flash once per round.

RAPID ROTATION
Before moving with a Speedster you control you may choose an opponent’s adjacent figure, or two figures if one of them is a Rogue Hero, and subtract 6 from your movement. Immediately place the chosen figures up to two spaces from their original placement. Placed figures will not take leaving engagement attacks but will take any falling damage that applies.

SPEED FORCE CONNECTION
Once per round, after revealing a numbered Order Marker and before taking a turn with a figure you control, you may reveal an "X" Order Marker on a Speedster you control to take an immediate turn with any Speedster you control.
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

I edited what you had in the SP, as there are some errors. Do you need to state they won’t take LEAs? Super speed and Speed Force already ignore them.

After a Speedster you control destroys an opponent's Unique Rogue Hero, you may immediately place that Speedster on an empty space in your start zone. If you do, remove a Wound Marker from its Army Card. Back In A Flash may not be used by the same figure more than once per round.
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

I think the last line should say "Figures may only be placed by this special power once per round", since the healing is contingent on them being placed anyways it reads better.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Nope. You're right, definitely don't need that part of the text. And that phrasing for the last clause is much better!
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Ericth's Tests

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Rogue Revolution Event

Version tested:
Spoiler Alert!


Army Test
Map: Rocky Mounds
Units: Flash(Barry), Kid Flash, Flash(John Fox), Revolution Event 250 VS Captain Cold 200, Tar Pit, Mirror Master 160, Heatwave, The Top, Trickster 65
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Ruined City
Units: Flash(Barry Allen), Kid Flash, Rogue Revolution Event 250 VS Captain Cold 200, The Top, Trickster 65, Girder
Spoiler Alert!


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Hard to tell if 250 is right here. Speedsters only healed 1 wound in the games that I played. Rapid Rotation never was a factor, there was never a reason to use it in these games. Might it be stronger if you could use it with Speed Dodge? Speed Force Connection is the most valuable, in game 2 with just Barry and Kid Flash, it gave me 8 turns a rounds with the Speedsters. Is all that worth 250? I don't know.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: So I ended up playing 5 playtests. I ended up throwing 3 away because Barry Allen was just too much. In 2 of the games he was able to kill 3 enemies in a round without taking a wound. His Special Attack was so strong against the Rogues low life and kind of low defense. I tried a couple of higher point games and a few lower point games, but it was the Barry Show every time. Team construction was a little challenging to get the points to match up. I feel like Captain Cold and the Top are musts for the Rogues, which forces a figure that ends in a 5 to even the teams out. As more Rogues come out that may change.

Kid Flash – I like this guy but like Barry, the Speed Dodge can really be strongor he can die very fast. In all these games except the 1st one he rolled very well. But 3 defense and 4 life makes him squishy too. His Metahuman Mentor power, is hugely helpful, but is kind of an anchor too. It really slows down his Mentor who needs to stay within 6 spaces, so that move of 12 get negated. It forces you to decide, big move or 2 turns? And if you take the big move you may be well out of range and never get the chance to get the double turn.

Captain Cold – Much better than v1. He feels like a leader. He's an order marker hub, with his The Rogues power. Flash Freeze is great, really slows down the a speedster, especially with a lack of range. My issue with him is his second power. Rogue Contingency Plan is okay, but in my games he already had the major of order markers on him. Might it be better if you could also move them off of him if he dies?

Tar Pit – As I stated earlier the Mirror Master to Tar Pit combo is great as it should allow you to get into range to stick at least one speedster, or two as in the case of my 1st game. My issue with him is his Special Attack, your goal using him should be to get figures stuck, not attacking from range. I'd like to see him be able to use it to attack a non-adjacent figure while engaged with a different figure. It would give him more flexibility.

Mirror Master – He has a couple of cool tricks but much more of a support character than an offensive weapon. Kind of a mule. Range of 6, defense of 6 is solid though. I don't know his v1 card enough to comment on.

All in all these are great additions to the Rogues. Kid Flash is a useful Sidekick too. I like the idea of a Unique Scenario, its a fun. I'm not totally sure if it accomplices what it set out to do or not. 4 of the 5 games I played were plagued by absolutely awful defense rolls by the Rogues and a maddening amount of blanks being rolled for Speed Dodge. Barry Allen's Special Attack just shredded the Rogues over and over. I'm not sure which is the outlier Game 1 or the other 4 games.
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

I think other than putting in some language to lock out bonus turns off of Speed Force Connection, I think I'm feeling good about moving things forward. Sounds like some swingy dice and just not as much access to autowounds here, but I feel alright about it thus far.

If we really want we could probably throw a potential unblockable on Rapid Rotation to increase its use, but I don't know that a power boost is necessary here.
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

I find Captain Cold’s leadership to be unintuitive but what I think he might be missing is that Cold gives you the bonding for the OM reveals on any Rogue cards, so he doesn’t have to be an OM hub (and probably shouldn’t be).

Just posting this for posterity. :p
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Looks like he misplayed Kid Flash's Metahuman Mentor, the 6-space requirement isn't necessary when the Mentor has the Superspeed or Speed Force special power. I'll add a FAQ into that thread. Didn't play Cold II to his best ability either if all OMs were on Cold - I'll add a clarification there too. Cool to see some more reviews of the new Rogues.

I think the idea of allowing Rapid Rotation after a Speed Dodge is pretty cool, it'd be a buff though.

RAPID ROTATION
Before moving normally or with the Speed Dodge special power with a Speedster you control you may choose an opponent’s adjacent figure, or two figures if one of them is a Rogue Hero and subtract 6 from your movement. Immediately place the chosen figures up to two spaces from their original placement. Placed figures will not take leaving engagement attacks but will take any falling damage that applies.
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Book of Rogues Revolution Event (Public Tests)

Do we want to just ditch the movement subtraction there? I could see putting that on there, and again, I think a buff is ultimately not a big deal because he's still generally gonna be fairly swingy in games.
 
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