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The Book of Phoenix Force

tcglkn

tcglkn

Tickle Pickle
Site Supporter
The Book of Phoenix Force

C3G MARVEL SUPER SECRET EXCLUSIVE 63
BATTLE FOR MUTANTKIND

C3G_ThePhoenixForce_comic.png

Comic PDF

C3G_ThePhoenixForce_mini.png

Mini PDF

The figure used for this unit is a Heroclix figure from the Marvel Avengers vs X-Men set.
Its model number and name are #R100 / The Phoenix Force.​

_________________________________________________________________

Character Bio - A powerful cosmic entity, an immortal being representing all current and future life. It has, at times, chosen a host to live within, granting the vessel outstanding power. It has the power to create or destroy. The Phoenix has had various hosts, but the most well known and frequent host is the mortal mutant Jean Grey. - (ComicVine, 2019)
_________________________________________________________________

-Rulings and Clarifications-
  • Phoenix Force is an Event Hero and follows Event Hero rules.
  • Base Clarification: Phoenix Force is a single-spaced figure
_________________________________________________________________

-Combinations and Synergies-

Incoming Synergy:Outgoing Synergy:Immunities, Benefits, and Weaknesses:_________________________________________________________________

-Strategy, Tactics and Tips-
  • N/A
-Heroscapers Community Contributions-
 
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Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

NAME = Phoenix Force

SPECIES = Entity
UNIQUENESS = Event Hero
CLASS = Guardian
PERSONALITY = Wild

SIZE/HEIGHT = Huge 15

LIFE = 10

MOVE = 7
RANGE = 4
ATTACK = 6
DEFENSE = 7

POINTS = 1200


PSIONIC AVATAR
At the start of each round, before rolling for initiative, if all Order Markers are placed on this card, you may choose a Unique Telepath Hero you control to be the Psionic Avatar for the round. The Avatar must use Phoenix Force's Move, Range, Attack and Defense numbers in place of its own, and gains any of the Phoenix Fire, Flying, and Super Strength special powers that it does not have. As long as the Avatar is on the battlefield, whenever you reveal an Order Marker on this card, instead of taking a turn with Phoenix Force, you must take a turn with its Avatar.

PHOENIX FIRE
Anytime Phoenix Force receives one or more wounds or is destroyed, you must immediately roll 1 unblockable attack die against each adjacent figure, one at a time.

COSMIC INFERNO
When you roll an unblockable attack die for the Phoenix Fire special power, roll one additional unblockable attack die.

FLYING
SUPER STRENGTH
 
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Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

Made a couple of tweaks based on feedback from the Last Chance Workshop. Required the Inferno power to have 2 or more wounds or get destroyed to trigger to make it less OP. Also ditched Lava Resistance.
 
Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

I'd swap out Phoenix Inferno for regular ol' Phoenix Fire, since we've established that as a keyword power.

If we wanted to keep the Phoenix Force's version a little more powerful, we could retcon Phoenix and Dark Phoenix's version to Phoenix Fire 1 and give the Phoenix Force Phoenix Fire 2.

In terms of the Avatar power, I'm not sure about this approach.

I think it mainly makes the Phoenix want to empower figures that have lower stats and strong powers that get crazy in conjunction with big stats, or figures that really benefit from the extra powers.

Cable falls into both categories and is an already-pretty-juicy card, so I think he'd be a must for testing this as it stands. Cable/Sage/Mutant Sidekicks is immediately what I want to run with this card. Gypsy, Mirage and Cosmo as my cheap back-up Avatar options.

I'm just not sure if 'lifting up the cheaper Telepaths, and also Cable' is the right move for the Phoenix. It feels off to me for a couple reasons:

a) I feel like the Phoenix Force tends to choose already-powerful telepaths as its avatars
b) The current approach doesn't capture the life/death/rebirth themes that tend to be prominent in Phoenix Force stories (y'know, the whole mythological significance of the Phoenix!)

I'd be looking for ways to push the Phoenix Force towards choosing characters like Jean as its Avatar. Don't think she'd be a go-to option in the current build (original Jean Grey is okay just for cheapness, but she doesn't want big stats as much as the other cheap Telepaths). I'd have the Phoenix Force doing stuff like juicing up figures with Phoenix Fire or resurrecting its Avatar. :2cents:
 
Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

Emma will have 7 Defense and one shield blocks all in Diamond mode.
 
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Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

I'll disagree with Ronin on one major point - I don't think we want to encourage the Phoenix Force to pick Jean. We already have two Jean with Phoenix powers cards. The fun here is that you can come up with weird combinations of force/host, whose powers interact in cool ways with busted stats.

The Force is going to be pretty costly, as it should be. 1000 points or something like that for a Super Cable doesn't seem like an unfair price.

If we want to try to balance things a bit better, maybe build in some sort of "isolation" factor - that stops the Avatar from giving or receiving synergy. Or a chance factor... I mean, the Phoenix Force is pretty capricious, so maybe you don't necessarily choose who the Avatar is, or it's a delayed entrance.
 
Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

What’s the plans for the miniature? The one posted in the OP has a huge base so it would need the new movement rules. It does come off the base with some work but it is difficult to balance on a single base.
 
Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

I know quozl rebased his. I believe it requires a weight at the base to make it stable.
 
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Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

I'm not too concern about Cable yet, Emma Frost does seem more scary to me right now.

As for Emma Frost, maybe we can require you to reveal an OM on Phoenix Force to take a turn with the Avatar, which would get around being able to have her in Diamond Mode as the Avatar.

As for the mini, I ordered it (only $3!) and would like to see how it's sized/weighted. I would not be opposed to this being double based if needed.

This is what I am currently considering:

PSIONIC AVATAR
At the start of each round, before rolling for initiative, if all Order Markers are placed on this card, you may choose a Unique Telepath Hero you control to be the Psionic Avatar. A chosen Avatar gains the Phoenix Fire 2, Flying, and Super Strength special powers, and may replace the Move, Range, Attack, and Defense numbers on its card with the ones on this card for the rest of the round. As long as the Avatar is in play, whenever you reveal an Order Marker on this card instead of taking a turn with Phoenix Force you take a turn with its Avatar.

PHOENIX FIRE 2
Anytime Phoenix Force receives one or more wounds or is destroyed, you must immediately roll 1 unblockable attack die against each figure within 2 spaces of it, one at a time.
 
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Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

I actually disagree on the whole original Jean doesn't want beefier stats. Her powers totally play into being chosen as the avatar, and I like how Pheonix Inferno is more powerful than Pheonix Fire. I'd just update Corvus to include that in his power. No real functional change there :2cents:
 
Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

johnny139 said:
I'll disagree with Ronin on one major point - I don't think we want to encourage the Phoenix Force to pick Jean. We already have two Jean with Phoenix powers cards. The fun here is that you can come up with weird combinations of force/host, whose powers interact in cool ways with busted stats.
Click to expand...

I'm mostly okay with that sentiment, but I worry that on a spectrum with 'encouraging wonky stuff' at one end and 'encouraging the character to strictly behave as it does in-fiction' at the other, we're pretty far off toward the wonky end.

I think Tickle's latest tweaks that turn the Phoenix Force into an OM hog are definitely a big improvement. Still think it should want strong Avatars and not weak ones, though.
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

I'm pretty happy with starting testing with what I have in my last post. The most concerning thing for me right now would be Emma Frost in Diamond Mode blocking all damage with 1 shield, hence why I made Phoenix Force place the OMs on it's card to prevent her from being the Avatar while in Diamond Mode. (I guess she could still be chosen as the Avatar but would be unable to take any turns which would mean you basically waste an entire round)

If we have to make it double spaced, that does actually increase the power of Phoenix Fire 2 quite a bit. I'm actually OK with swapping to Phoenix Fire and allowing it to roll 1 die against all figures in 2 spaces vs the current 2 dice for all figures in 2 spaces.
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

tcglkn said:
If we have to make it double spaced, that does actually increase the power of Phoenix Fire 2 quite a bit. I'm actually OK with swapping to Phoenix Fire and allowing it to roll 1 die against all figures in 2 spaces vs the current 2 dice for all figures in 2 spaces.
Click to expand...

Personally, I'm ok with the extra oomph it would have as a double spaced figure, I mean, it IS the Phoenix Force we are talking about here.
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

Karat said:
tcglkn said:
If we have to make it double spaced, that does actually increase the power of Phoenix Fire 2 quite a bit. I'm actually OK with swapping to Phoenix Fire and allowing it to roll 1 die against all figures in 2 spaces vs the current 2 dice for all figures in 2 spaces.
Click to expand...

Personally, I'm ok with the extra oomph it would have as a double spaced figure, I mean, it IS the Phoenix Force we are talking about here.
Click to expand...

I agree with that. I was kinda making two separate points there. First that being double spaced would boost the power of that ability and I am ok with that.

Second that I was OK with just changing Phoenix Inferno to be Phoenix Fire with a 2 space range (so Phoenix Fire 2) as opposed to editing Krovax.
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

tcglkn said:
I'm pretty happy with starting testing with what I have in my last post. The most concerning thing for me right now would be Emma Frost in Diamond Mode blocking all damage with 1 shield, hence why I made Phoenix Force place the OMs on it's card to prevent her from being the Avatar while in Diamond Mode. (I guess she could still be chosen as the Avatar but would be unable to take any turns which would mean you basically waste an entire round)
Click to expand...

It doesn't concern me near as much as Cable shenanigans, but Gypsy can also do '1 shield blocks all'. That's why I mentioned her earlier. (I probably should have made a bigger deal of why I was bringing her up, though)

In general, 'indestructible Avatar' doesn't worry me as much as 'avatar that's juiced on offense'.

If Gypsy is the Avatar and you can't hurt her, you can still go after the Phoenix, which has the same Defense value and also all the OMs, and taking it out makes Gypsy kind of a non-threat. And while you're trying to take it out, you're going to be facing one attack of probably 6-7 dice a turn, plus the Phoenix Fire auto-wounds. Strong, but manageable.

If Cable is the Avatar, I think you're probably going after Cable first, but I could be swayed. Either way, you're facing two attacks of 6 a turn while you're doing it. Very likely two attacks of 8 a turn, between Flying and Sighting on Cable. Plus the auto-wounds. Not many figures are really built to stand up to that.

The range limitation the Phoenix Force puts on him and the new OM requirements on the Phoenix Force help mitigate the worst of the cheese that Avatar Cable could pull. (If it was still easy to Sage-boost him and give him bonding partners? Forget about it)

tcglkn said:
Second that I was OK with just changing Phoenix Inferno to be Phoenix Fire with a 2 space range (so Phoenix Fire 2) as opposed to editing Krovax.
Click to expand...

Just for the record, we'd probably still have to make card updates going the Phoenix Fire 2 route, just to Phoenix and Dark Phoenix (rather than Korvus).

I think you could maybe get away with stronger Phoenix Fire for Phoenix Force, without retcons, by doing something like this:

PHOENIX FIRE (stock version)

PHOENIX INFERNO
Whenever you roll an unblockable attack die for the Pheonix Fire special power, roll one additional unblockable attack die.
Click to expand...

I think that route only works for upping the number of dice, though. The wording of Phoenix Fire doesn't let you elegantly up the range on it, so if that's the buff you really prefer, then that angle probably doesn't work.
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

I guess for almost 1000 points (potentially more after testing) I’m ok with 2 attacks of 6 or 8 in one turn. :shrug: I definitely like the OM restriction on the Avatar power because it does give you a weakness to go after.

I’m not interested in bumping the Phoenix Fire power to 2 dice that feels a bit over the top. 2 space range does increase the power just enough for me while also being a detriment enough to your own placement sometimes.
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

tcglkn said:
I guess for almost 1000 points (potentially more after testing) I’m ok with 2 attacks of 6 or 8 in one turn. :shrug: I definitely like the OM restriction on the Avatar power because it does give you a weakness to go after.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I'm for sure not trying to say it can't be balanced or anything. Just that it looks to me like the combo that's gonna drive testing and costing here.
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

Ok kinda read it like you were saying the combo is too strong without testing. I definitely think Gypsy and Cable will be two of the stronger Avatars to choose and would like to see that tested thoroughly.

Also my version of the sortable spreadsheet I downloaded doesn’t have Gypsy in it so I missed her when looking for issues with the Telepaths.

Really we should all be scared of Stan Lee with the Phoenix Force. :lol:
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

tcglkn said:
Ok kinda read it like you were saying the combo is too strong without testing. I definitely think Gypsy and Cable will be two of the stronger Avatars to choose and would like to see that tested thoroughly.

Also my version of the sortable spreadsheet I downloaded doesn’t have Gypsy in it so I missed her when looking for issues with the Telepaths.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. Current released version of the Sortable Index is in my sig, but there's an On Deck version here. (Missing the last few designs, but mostly up-to-date)
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

Awesome, thanks Ronin!

Also just so everyone knows where I stand on the power level of this design, I consider the Phoenix Force very close in power level to Galactus, but would like to keep this design around 1000 points, 1100 max, as you do want a couple of Telepaths to be the Avatars.
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

Phoenix Force Anderson!!
Lawbreakers beware. :)
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

Maybe have Cosmic Inferno double up rolls for any figure that has Phoenix Fire by default? Like, the Force and Phoenix and Dark Phoenix and whoever get 2 dice, any other Avatar just gets one?
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

Jean does still feel like a viable Avatar here - not top level, perhaps, but manageable. A cheap cost, a free bonus throw attack and a bleeding irritating ability that can stop you from even moving shouldn't be underestimated.
 
Re: The Book of Pheonix Force: Breathing Period

Tornado said:
I know quozl rebased his. I believe it requires a weight at the base to make it stable.
Click to expand...

It's single-spaced, doesn't need weight, and I just removed it from its original base.

45995557591_d47198fee4_k.jpg
 
Re: The Book of Phoenix Force: Breathing Period

Nice pic. Hacksaw correct?
And wtf is that flaming chicken?
 
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