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The Book of Maxima

Re: The Book of Maxima (Initial Playtest Phase)

Hero vs. hero test #2 has Drax in the title but it looks like Wonder Man was the fight partner.
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Initial Playtest Phase)

I PROPOSE WE MOVE TO PLAYTESTING AT 340!

Danger Room, correct?
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (VOTE for Playtesting)

Yea

And yeah, she's set to go to the Danger Room. As soon as this passes we can post the new round.
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (VOTE for Playtesting)

No problem! With japes on Abstain, this passes... so ready for the Danger Room whenever.
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Playtesting Phase - Danger Room)

DR tests from Ronin:

Ronin said:
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Maxima @340

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Ms. Marvel, Martian Manhunter (I), Maxima (990) vs Iron Patriot, Ms. Marvel, Darkseid, Zombie (1000)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Maxima, Baron Zemo (Heinrich), Superman (II), Beat Boy (Pterodactyl) (1000) vs Original X-Men (1000)
Spoiler Alert!


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: I suspect she'll play a bit better with a slightly raised point ceiling; at 1000 points, she feels like she eats up a bit too much of your budget, especially since she needs a real heavy-hitter around if you want to feel secure about playing the match on your terms.

The first game was slanted against her and Iron Patriot was rolling really well, so it's not too surprising that she didn't accomplish much. She didn't do terribly in the second game, but she really felt lucky to do as well as she did; she had to weather a crapload of attacks and then get lucky on a Psychokinesis roll just to get a chance to take out a ~200 point figure.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: Seeking a Mate is interesting as a centerpiece. The no-OM-required movement bonding is nice, but it feels like it's more downside than upside to me. I'm a little skeptical that she's worth her points, but I don't feel like I quite got the most out of her here either.

Completely unfamiliar with the character. Shame she's not a Champion, though. She'd be a great Justice League piece and/or Allen the Alien buddy. I feel like her build options are pretty restricted to OM manager + bruiser + filler, at least in the 1000 point arena. Curious about how the initial went with her and what proved successful there.
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Playtesting Phase - Danger Room)

Forgot to put L_O's in here a while ago:

Lazy Orang said:
Alright, here she is in full.

Lazy Orang said:
Name Of The Playtest Unit: Maxima
Army Test 1
Map: Road Rampage (no glyphs)
Armies:
Maxima, Groot, Star-Lord, Rocket Raccoon, Lockheed, Colossus, Beast Boy (Pterodactyl) (1,400)
vs
Martian Manhunter (vII), Hawkgirl, Booster Gold, Starman (Jack Knight), Flash (Wally West), 1x Skrull Infiltrator (1,395)

Spoiler Alert!


Okay, talking her over with my brother, and feeling that she's a little frustrating to build armies for and that, even when you do, it can really screw with you if your opponent has a big attack hero, so a lot of the time your plans won't work out. I, therefore, think it's necessary to do a test where your opponent has the big attack - it's so easy to be blindsided. Furthermore, I think it may be interesting to use her as a threat - to have her sitting there and asking that big heavy hitter 'do you really want me racing towards you at top speed?' Pair her with Heinrich Zemo for Order Marker management, and she could make a fairly effective deterrent/homing missile.

P.S. I notice that Ronin tested her like this - do you think that this is worth doing?
Click to expand...

- Theme Test/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them. Tentative Pass - I don't know the character, really, but I watched her episode of Superman TAS online to get a feel for her (didn't like her to be honest - her handmaiden's description of her as a ‘spoiled, self-interested brat' feels pretty accurate to me). The design seems to fit. I will say that her needing to move with Seeking a Mate makes her seem clingy, but I suppose that's thematic?
- Mirror Test/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game. Pass - Technically she could go full Narcissus if someone else has another Maxima, but that causes no mechanical issues and requires there to be no figures with an attack of 6 or more (highly unlikely, even if you cast aside the unlikelihood of two people drafting her) - I just thought the possibility was comical enough to mention. :)
- Bonding Test/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding. Pass - Zero Synergies.
- Synergies Test/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak. Pass - see above - why do I fill these two out separately? They always have the same answer.
- Power Check/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any. Tentative Pass - Well, she's certainly not overpowered.
- Fun Test/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play. Fail - I never found any of her powers interesting to play and Seeking a Mate is more of an annoying additional factor you have to worry about than anything that felt truly worthwhile.
- Fun Competitive Test/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against. Pass - No issues.
- Drafting Test/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting. Fail - I would never draft her in her current state.
- Usage Test/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable. Fail - I see almost no reason you'd ever use Psychokinesis - I get it's not supposed to be something you'd use often, but I never used it and don't see why I'd risk the 60% chance of it failing and me losing my attack if I can just smack someone with an attack of 7. Drop the required roll to 11, and I can see times I might want to use it - they'd still be rare, but from what you said, that's a good thing, but the present version just takes the rarity so far that in my eyes it may as well not be on the card.
- Strategy Test/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game. Tentative Pass - She requires strategy to use, but I’d say the strategy of using her was too finnicky right now, and you don’t get that much out of it.

Army Test 2
Map: Fulcrum (no glyphs)
Armies;
Maxima, Baron Heinrich Zemo, Spawn, Radioactive Man (1,000 Points)
vs.
Captain America (C3G), Thor, War Machine, Bucky (1,000 Points)
Spoiler Alert!
Spoiler Alert!


Final Thoughts On The Tested Unit:

Okay, before analysing the figure, I will apologise - this is going to be the harshest review I have ever written for a figure I have tested for you guys (and also the longest). I don’t mean to be cruel, and I think she has potential (as I will get into later), but, at present, I would never, ever take her. That being said, let’s get on with the analysis.
In the end, there seems to be a lot of frustration and faff around her Seeking a Mate power for very little payoff. Do you let make sure you have the mate so you can control her movements? Do you let your opponent have the mate and use her as a threat, but at the same time give your opponent the opportunity to mess with your placement? Doesn’t really matter, you’re not getting much out of it. It’s a lot to consider and plan aound for shockingly little actual gain - you get to move her up, which is valuable, I guess, but with 7 move and flying it isn’t really as though she’s going to have any trouble reaching the front lines, and once she’s there, she’s shockingly dull to play.
Add to that, I don’t think she’s very good. For thirty points less I get She-Hulk, who may not fly and has no range, but hits just as hard, still Super-Leaps and has Hard Body and Gamma Healing to give her survivability probably not that far off Maxima’s. For twenty points less, I can get Supergirl, who has one less attack but Kryptonian Defence and, therefore, considerably better survivability considering their otherwise identical stats, or Spawn, who I think we just established is awesome. And, to top it all off, none of these have to faff around with a Mate. It’s like Ronin said, it’s more downside than upside here, and to top it off, it’s just dull. Now, I don’t mind it having a downside, I don’t mind it being exploitable, but if that’s going to be the case then I’m going to need to feel like it’s worth it, that I’m actually gaining something here, but her signature power just didn’t seem to add much other than frusration. When you come away from a figure feeling frustration, it’s generally not a good sign. Nor is it a particularly good sign that, while I actually genuinely enjoyed both of those games, I feel like I'd have enjoyed them more if I'd had someone else filling up her points cost.
Now, this may give you the impression that I think the design is terrible. I don’t - I think it is close to being really good, it’s just missing a hook to tie it together and really work, and without that, it feels dull and frustrating, as though there should be something. The key here is Seeking a Mate, and while the movement works as both a bonus and an exploitable weakness, it just isn’t enough - the weakness may not be too much stick, but as a player I just wouldn’t be satisfied with the tiny morsel of carrot on offer. Here is my suggestion - make it so that she adds one to her attack when adjacent to her Mate. This would mean that:
1) There’d be more reason to use a Mate on your side if it means you have control over her conditional attack boost;
2) She’d also be more effective as a threat to an enemy Mate - as of right now, guys like Thor aren’t really any more scared of her than they’d be of someone like Supergirl, but if she could act as a deterrent by being able to fly in, keep them tied up and hit them with a big attack, one bigger than she could hit anyone else with, then that would be effective, and subtly allow two different ways to strategically use the same power;
3) It would make her more interesting and useful to play - if you can use strategy to make sure you can menace your opponents with an attack of 8, then she’d definitely be a lot more fun and more worth her points, and I doubt it would be OP as it’s still conditional; and;
4) It would increase her options for a tactically viable Mate - if they’re boosting her attack, then they’re less likely to just overshadow her. Sure, someone like Thor may well still do so, but it still opens up a lot more options who really shouldn’t be closed off in order to use her effectively. I particularly think that a Maxima/Superman vI combo would be interesting if she worked like this - Maxima deals the pain, Superman protects her with Heroic Duty. Considering her main thematic link is with Superman, this seems like a good thing.
Just this one change, this one little addition, is all I feel is needed to change her from a fairly disappointing use of 340 points to a fun addition to the game. Well, that and a drop to her Psychokinesis roll - seriously, that power may as well not be there right now.
Hope I was helpful.
Click to expand...

In response we're currently trying her out with an "blanks count as skulls" when adjacent to her Mate.
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Playtesting Phase - Danger Room)

And the set from LO with the revised card:

Lazy Orang said:
Lazy Orang said:
Okay, here's test one for the revised Maxima:

Name Of The Playtest Unit: Maxima
Army Test 1
Map: Grundy’s Grave (no glyphs)
Armies:
Maxima, Superman (vI), Steel (1,000)
vs
Frankenstein, Abomination (C3G), Dragon Man (1,000)

Spoiler Alert!
Click to expand...

And here's the rest! :)

- Theme Test/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them. Tentative Pass - No change.
- Mirror Test/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game. Pass - No change.
- Bonding Test/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding. Pass - Zero Synergies.
- Synergies Test/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak. Pass - see above.
- Power Check/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any. Pass - She's much stronger now, and really scary, but I wouldn't say she was overpowered.
- Fun Test/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play. Pass - Now that she's getting a bonus from her mate, she feels fun to play.
- Fun Competitive Test/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against. Pass - No issues.
- Drafting Test/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting. Pass - She has two strong and decent methods of playing her, either with a big bruiser on her team so you can control her bonuses (which can be pretty restrictive, but I'd argue it's actually nowhere near as restrictive and hard to use as Beta Ray Bill - a good figure, but hard to use), or to just use her as a cheap-ish counter-draft to a big hitter, basically to use her as a homing missile to run towards her target and do as much damage as possible, but which also leaves her free movement open to exploitation by her oponent by, say, forcing her onto low ground, or forcing leaving engagement attacks, a bit like Heroic Duty.
- Usage Test/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable. Fail - I know you've said you don't want to change it, but I'm sorry, when in four games I haven't had one occasion when I've even considered using Psychokinesis, and can imagine almost none at all (unless I'm on a lava map), I can't give her a pass here. I really recommend dropping the roll to 11 - it still won't be a go to, but I can at least imagine risking it occasionally, but giving it only a 40% chance of working when I could instead just be, oh, I don't know, punching something, makes it almost worthless.
- Strategy Test/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game. Pass - I think I said most of it on in Drafting - she has two really distinct methods of play, both of which are equally viable, but her opponent is perfectly capable of exploiting weaknesses in Seeking a Mate - the strategy feels worthwhile.

Army Test 2
Map: Fulcrum (no glyphs)
Armies;
Maxima, Baron Heinrich Zemo, Yellow Lantern (Arkillo), Radioactive Man (990 Points)
vs.
Captain America (C3G), Thor, War Machine, Bucky (1,000 Points)
Spoiler Alert!


Final Thoughts On The Tested Unit:

Alright, this is exactly what I wished she was when I was playing her before (except for, you know, Psychokinesis still being useless). She’s deadly, and finally feels like the faff with he Mate is worth the problems attached - before, it just felt like a frustration, now, it remains something to plan around and a weakness, but I feel no frustration with it because I’m getting something out of it now, rather than it just being an additional factor to work around without any benefit. I can’t say she’s my favourite unit, or one that particularly excites me, but that’s more my personal preferences in game-play and theme than any actual issues in the design - the design works now, is fun to play and dangerous, and I can actually see myself drafting her now. Good job! :)

~ Lazy Orang, saying Happy Holidays! :)
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Playtesting Phase - Danger Room)

And from Arkham:

Arkham said:
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Maxima @ 340

Army Test 1
Map: Custom
Units:
Maxima(340), Martian Manhunter I(300), Star-Lord(250), Bane(190), Darkseid(380) (1460)
vs.
Fantastic Four(1000), She-Hulk(310), Iceman(150) (1460)
Spoiler Alert!


___________________________________________________________​

Army Test 2
Map: Custom
Units:
Maxima(340), Drax(350), Oracle(110) (800)
vs.
Wrecking Crew (800)
Spoiler Alert!


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: First game her team got steam rolled by the Fantastic Four + Adventurers. So they had a bad string of luck against a team that dominated due to their luck. Just about everything went the opponent's way in the 1st game, but the 2nd game was slightly more even, except Maxima was rolling huge hits. In combination with Oracle's Secret Attack Plan, it got even nastier. When Maxima can effectively pick apart her opponent's biggest hitters, she's quite a force. I'd say 350-370 is reasonable. I wouldn't go beyond that, as she does have some ways to expose her and take advantage of her weaknesses from the opponent's side, but I wouldn't go any lower than 350. Certainly draftable, but the team needs to be properly constructed, otherwise you may be struggling with Leaving Engagement Attacks, something I didn't have to suffer with here due to the sweep of the 1st game against her, and the 2nd game going in her favor Mate wise at each turn. Her Psychokinesis special went unused, as I didn't find much use for it with her bread and butter being an attack of 7 with blanks being skulls.
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Playtesting Phase - Danger Room)

And one more from Ronin:

Ronin said:
C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Maxima @7 Life, 350 points

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Maxima, Superman II, Star-Lord, Hawkeye (II), Martian Manhunter (I), Angel (Warren) (1600) vs Fantastic Four, Silver Surfer (C3G), Wasp, Iceman (1600)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Maxima, Baron Zemo (Heinrich), Superman (II), Solomon Grundy, Star-Lord, Angel (Warren) (1600) vs Captain America (C3G), Bucky, Ms. Marvel, Martian Manhunter (I), Spider-Man (C3G), Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) (1600)
Spoiler Alert!


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Ridiculous blowout win in game two, but I'm giving that one to Superman. Still a great showing from Maxima, one-shotting Cap is hard to spin as bad, but Superman was ridiculous and OHKO'd all the other heavy-hitters on the opposing team. Finally got to see a little of that high potential she has in these games.
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Playtesting Phase - Danger Room)

So, in total, she's at two wins to four losses with the current Danger Room powerset (the whole blanks-as-skulls thing). I'm a little wary of her still since, when she goes all out, she can do a ton of damage... but she requires being in another army with other heavy hitters and is going to be tough to use. So while I'm tempted to dial her down a bit I don't think the results really warrant it.

She was tested at 340-350 and seems fine either way. Looking at it, though, it doesn't seem we have any figures at 345, so I figure, why not slide her in there. Means she fits pretty nicely with Superman II in an 800 point army... but not quite perfectly.

So, second post updated, and I PROPOSE WE MOVE TO FINAL EDITING!
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Playtesting Phase - Danger Room)

johnny139 said:
So, in total, she's at two wins to four losses with the current Danger Room powerset (the whole blanks-as-skulls thing). I'm a little wary of her still since, when she goes all out, she can do a ton of damage... but she requires being in another army with other heavy hitters and is going to be tough to use. So while I'm tempted to dial her down a bit I don't think the results really warrant it.

She was tested at 340-350 and seems fine either way. Looking at it, though, it doesn't seem we have any figures at 345, so I figure, why not slide her in there. Means she fits pretty nicely with Superman II in an 800 point army... but not quite perfectly.

So, second post updated, and I PROPOSE WE MOVE TO FINAL EDITING!
Click to expand...

I missed this originally so you may want to throw some tags in there.
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (VOTE for Final Editing)

I usually like to wait a bit before tagging everyone - just to avoid email spam. I will @TrollBrute though since it's been almost a day and all.
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (VOTE for Final Editing)

THIS PASSES! Ronin posted the following mini pics which should hopefully work:

Ronin said:
Got a couple sharper ones.

Spoiler Alert!


First one's probably a bit better because you can't tell her eyes are lopsided.
Click to expand...

If not, I'd prefer asking for of this mini since it looks a lot nicer than the other.
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Design Phase)

SEEKING A MATE
At the start of theeach round, if Maxima does not have a Mate on the battlefield, you must choose another figure Unique Hero other than Maxima with the Super Strength special power on the battlefield. that has The chosen figure must be the Unique Hero with the highest Attack number listed on its card among Unique Heroes on the battlefield. After a player takes a turn with Maxima's her Mate takes a turn, you must immediately move Maxima as close to that figure her Mate as possible, moving up to a maximum of 7 spaces. When moving with Seeking a Mate, Maxima will take any leaving engagement attacks.

LOVER'S FURY
Add 2 to Maxima's rolls 2 additional attack dice Attack number when attacking an adjacent figure. When rolling dice for a normal attack against an adjacent figure or for a leaving engagement attack with Maxima, if Maxima is adjacent to her Mate, when attacking an adjacent figure with her normal attack, or when rolling dice against a figure leaving an engagement with her, all blanks rolled count as extra skulls.

PSYCHOKINESIS 13
Instead of attacking with Maxima, you may choose a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Maxima and roll a twenty the 20-sided die. If you roll 13 or higher, you may either inflict 1 unblockable wound on that figure or, if that figure is small or medium, you may place that figure on any empty space within 4 spaces of its original placement. Placed figures will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING
Click to expand...

Pastability:

SEEKING A MATE
At the start of each round, if Maxima does not have a Mate on the battlefield, you must choose a Unique Hero other than Maxima with the Super Strength special power on the battlefield. The chosen figure must be the Unique Hero with the highest Attack number listed on its card among Unique Heroes on the battlefield. After her Mate takes a turn, you must move Maxima as close to her Mate as possible, moving up to a maximum of 7 spaces. When moving with Seeking a Mate, Maxima will take any leaving engagement attacks.

LOVER'S FURY
Add 2 to Maxima's Attack number when attacking an adjacent figure. When rolling dice for a normal attack against an adjacent figure or for a leaving engagement attack with Maxima, if Maxima is adjacent to her Mate, all blanks rolled count as extra skulls.

PSYCHOKINESIS 13
Instead of attacking with Maxima, you may choose a figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Maxima and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 13 or higher, you may either inflict 1 unblockable wound on that figure or, if that figure is small or medium, you may place that figure on any empty space within 4 spaces of its original placement. Placed figures will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

SUPER STRENGTH
FLYING
Click to expand...
 
Re: The Book of Maxima (Final Editing Phase)

Updated. :up: Thanks for all your good work as ever, Viegon. :D
 
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