The Book of Hand Mystics

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Initial Testing)

Gonna hit Dormammu first! Got those games set up, should get a window to tackle Dormammu and these guys tomorrow.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Initial Testing)

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Hand Mystics

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Hand Mystics @130, Doctor Octopus (I), Hand Ninja x3 (600) vs Batgirl (Steph), Robin (Dick), Batgirl (Cass), Nite Owl, Oracle (800)

Spoiler Alert!

The Hand Mystics get moved up early to try and keep near the field of battle. Robin picks one off early, but then Ock and the Ninja move in and manage to gum up the works and protect the other 2 Mystics.

Nite Owl goes down first, but the Mystics let him go down, instead claiming Steph for the Hand when she dies toward the end of the second round. Cass finishes off Ock just in time for Steph to come back and replace him as the Ninjas' bonding hero.

Cass is really hard for the Ninja to put a dent in, but fortunately for them, Brainwashed Steph manages to get through her defense and put 3 wounds on her before going down. After that, the Hand Ninja start bonding with the remaining Mystics to finish off Cass and clean up the other Gothamites. Mercifully, they get through Cass's defense again before too long and take her out, despite her counter-striking several ninja to death.

Oracle and Robin also account for a few ninja, but the hordes are just too much for them in the end.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done (Normal Attack): 0 wounds to Steph in 2 attacks, 1 wound to Cass in 2 attacks (destroyed), 0 wounds to Dick in 1 attack, 0 wounds to Oracle in 3 attacks
• Phantom Walk: not used
• Brainwashing: made Doc Ock a Ninja
• Resurrection: brought Steph over to the Ninja side just after Ock went down, and let the Hand Ninja still have a bonding hero
• Damage Taken: 1 destroyed in 1 attack from Robin, 1 destroyed by Defensive Premonition

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): 1 Hand Mystic and 3 Hand Ninja figures

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Hand Mystics @125, Masahiro Arashi, Doctor Octopus (I), Yakuza Enforcer x2 (640) vs Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Scarlet Spider (Ben) (640)

Spoiler Alert!

The Hand bring Doc Ock into the fold again, this time to benefit from Masahiro's attack boost. Ruthless-boosted Ninja-Ock helps take down Luke Cage in a timely fashion, but Iron Fist destroys him.

Masahiro and the Enforcers take out Iron Fist and the Hand Mystics plan to resurrect him, but Scarlet Spider manages to mop them up before they can do the deed.

In retrospect, it may have been a better idea to let Iron Fist come back and then mop up the Hand Mystics to get Danny back, but Ben wasn't super interested in the possibility of facing any attacks from Danny.

In any case, Ben managed to mop up the Yakuza for a narrow win.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done (Normal Attack): 0 wounds to Luke Cage in 2 attacks
• Phantom Walk: not used
• Brainwashing: made Doc Ock a Ninja
• Resurrection: tried to resurrect Iron Fist, but Scarlet Spider managed to take em all out before they could bring him back
• Damage Taken: 1 destroyed by Iron Fist in 1 attack, 2 destroyed by Scarlet Spider in 3 attacks

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Scarlet Spider with 4 wounds

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Hand Mystics @125, Karai, Hand Ninja x2, Graviton (880) vs Wrecking Crew, Skrull Infiltrator x4, Fire Ant Swarm x4 (880)

Spoiler Alert!

Graviton and the Hand managed to do a number on Bulldozer early on here, and the Mystics brought him back as a Ninja. Bulldozer got 3 wounds on Wrecker, but that was the extent of what he managed before Piledriver and Wrecker managed to bounce some turns back and forth to take out the Hand Mystics. With the Mystics down, Bulldozer reverted to the Wrecking Crew's side, and the unwounded Graviton lost Ninja status.

Graviton had a few chances to stop Piledriver's movement during his killing spree (the Mystics had spread out to not be too easily killable), with Gravitational Grasp, but he couldn't manage a 9 to save his life. Or, more accurately, to save the Hand Mystics' lives.

The Hand team manged to polish off Wrecker and Piledriver, but the Wrecking Crew getting Bulldozer back helped them to a pretty big victory. Didn't hurt that they were rolling hot on attack either - game stats show em at 57.55% skulls.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done (Normal Attack): not used
• Phantom Walk: not used
• Brainwashing: made Graviton a Ninja
• Resurrection: resurrected Bulldozer as a Ninja at the end of the first round. Ended up handing a full-health Bulldozer back to the Wrecking Crew when Piledriver killed off the Mystics.
• Damage Taken: 3 destroyed by Piledriver in 3 attacks

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Bulldozer unwounded, Thunderball unwounded, 2 Skrull Infiltrators, 2 Fire Ant Swarms

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units: Hand Mystics @125, Iron Patriot, Hand Ninja x3, Captain Marvel (Billy) (1030) vs Captain America, Iron Man (Avengers), Songbird, Speedball, Piledriver (1030)

Spoiler Alert!

Accidentally ran Iron Patriot against a build that's kind of a counter (with Iron Man boosting initiative), but it didn't end up being much of a factor - Iron Man never swung a single initiative, and the teams went even on the number of initiatives they won.

Norman bonding with the Hand is definitely strong, but having the Mystics in there introduces a weak card that the opponent can throw OMs onto when you lose initiative.

Anyway, Cap and Songbird boosting Speedball proved to be pretty strong, and they managed to grind up a lot of ninja, but all those screens gave the Hand team a lot of ability to just do their thing behind the scenes.

Norman and Billy took out Iron Man asap to take away his initiative boost, and the Mystics brought him back to have a +1 (he had been markered by Cap) for their own team.

Speedball made an effort to take out the Hand Mystics and bring Iron Man back over to his team, but he didn't have the attack rolls for it. The Ninja Iron Folks ended up mopping the floor with him.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done (Normal Attack): not used
• Phantom Walk: not used
• Brainwashing: made Iron Patriot a Ninja
• Resurrection: resurrected Iron Man as a Ninja at the end of the second round
• Damage Taken: 1 destroyed by Speedball in 3 attacks

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Iron Patriot with 3 wounds, Captain Marvel with 5 wounds, Brainwashed Iron Man unwounded, 2 each of Hand Mystics and Hand Ninja

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: 2 and 2 here - close win, close loss, big loss, big win. I feel pretty good about em at 125. Their recruitment is really strong, but their resurrection is kind of a crazy gambit that can pay off big or end up working against them.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Initial Testing)

I'm gonna go ahead and propose we send the Hand to public testing.

I think Iron Patriot combos probably call for some further testing, but I'm probably not gonna run a ton of games to stress that myself.

 

[johnny139]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (VOTE Public Testing)

Yea

Seems like they were pretty fun games!

 

[Yodaking]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (VOTE Public Testing)

yea

 

[Zettian Juggernaut]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (VOTE Public Testing)

Yea

 

[japes]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (VOTE Public Testing)

yea

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (VOTE Public Testing)

Well that's enough votes, so this'll pass in a few hours. Thanks, guys.

 

[Scapemage]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Game 2 and thoughts coming likely Thursday.

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Hand Mystics

Army Test
Map: Boiling Point by Dignan
Units: Hand Mystics (125), Bullseye, Hand Ninja x2, and Captian Marvel (Mary) (800) vs. Mister Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Animal Man, and Jocasta (800).

Spoiler Alert!

Normal Attack Damage:
None.

Hand Brainwashing Target: Captain Marvel
Hand Resurrection: Revived Invisible Woman in Round 3

The game heats up quickly as the adventurers rollout into the Hand Ninja. Lots of missed shots are thrown around and Captain Marvel, ninja-style, comes up to tussle with Invisible Woman but gets a load of Jocasta instead. Two thirds of the Hand Ninja drop and the Jocasta Captain Marvel grudge match continues. The Hand Ninja fall but Bullseye gets into the action and brings Invisible Woman close to death as the adventurers ignore Captain Marvel and advance to the assassin backline. Round 3 sees little action but Invisible Woman does fall, being revived successfully by the Hand Mystics! Jocasta and Captain Marvel trade their lives, and not it’s a contest to see who can whiff on defense first. After quite the slugfest, Mister Fantastic nearly dies, but he manages to allow Animal Man to slay Bullseye, and quick work of theHand Mystic ends the game.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Mister Fantastic w/ 3 wounds, Animal Man w/ 2 wound, and revived Invisible Woman unwounded.

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Boiling Point by Dignan
Units: Hand Mystics (125), Hand Ninja x3, Man-Bat Assassins, Ra’s al Ghul I, and War Machine (1000) vs. Professor X, Beast, Angel, Cyclops I, Jean Grey, and Iceman (1000).

Spoiler Alert!

Normal Attack Damage:
None.

Hand Brainwashing Target: War Machine
Hand Resurrection: Revived Iceman in Round 1

Round one goes magically for the Assassins, though not without trouble. Iceman, Cyclops, and Jean Grey advance fast, pinning War Machine and half-killing him while also eliminating a squad of Hand Ninja. The Man-Bat Assassins make quick work of Iceman with their claw grabs and manage to finish him off within range of a Hand Mystic for a quick revive at the end of the round. The Man-Bat Assassins are finished off, but not before Cyclops falls to War Machine being moved by Ra's al Ghul. Beast gets into the fray and begins taking out Hand Ninja and Hand Mystics, but not without receiving damage of his own. Iceman misses Jean, and one Hand Mystic makes the difference in Iceman's fate now. Things quickly turn in the Mutants favor as Beast and Jean Grey mop up all but one Hand Ninja and take out Ra's al Ghul. Jean half dies, but a stellar turn from her to open the next round ends the game.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Beast w/ 4 wounds, Jean Grey w/2 wounds, Revived Iceman w/ 1 wound, Angel and Professor X unwounded.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: The Hand Mystics are really tough to cost. They don't do a lot of fighting. In my games, they attacked some, but didn't manage any wounds. They got good revives but those revives often turn the corner when the flimsy Mystics are eliminated, returning the heroes to the other side and essentially causing a revival for the enemy. Allowing any Human, Mutant, or Mutate to live in an Ninja Assassin army is awesome and allows for some really interesting army building in addition to the Mystics bonding with the Hand Ninja themselves. All in all, I'm really not sure about cost, but I'd guess closer to 100 by feeling.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: I really enjoyed the Hand Mystics for army building purposes and seeing what they could do, but they were underwhelming in game. I always wanted to keep them back and when I did bring them into play, they got quickly mopped up by ranged units or multi-attackers.

 

[Scapemage]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Alright, playtest finished!

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Thanks, Scapemage!

I'll keep em at 125 for now, pending further results. They're tough because they're pretty swingy, so I want to see another report before I move the needle.

 

[Yodaking]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

I did notice that in both of those games the winning team had regained a fallen ally and that was a bit concerning to me. Not sure on the theme ramifications but could we say that a resurrected hero does not rejoin their allies when the last Hand Mystic dies?

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

I wouldn't change anything before seeing more games - losing the resurrected hero only happened to me once in my four initial games, and taking that away means either the points shoot up here or they need some kind of different limitation and the power gets totally reworked.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Stronger showing from Nobody:

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Hand Mystics

Army Test
Map: Ivy's Greenhouse
Units: Team 1 (930): Hand Mystics (125) Hand Ninja x5 (425), Incredible Hulk (C3G) (380)
Team 2 (930): Daredevil (180), Punisher (180), Batgirl (Babs) (130), Batgirl (Cassie) (130), Nite Owl (130), Robin (Tim) (120, Alfred (60)

Spoiler Alert!

Pre-game: Hulk is a ninja now

Round 1: T2 wins initiative
-Daredevil, Cass, and Robin move forward
-Hulk leaps forward, ninjas move forward
-Punisher, Cassie, and Nite Owl move forward
-Hulk leaps forward and attacks Nite Owl but fails, ninjas move forward
-Cassie moves forward, Daredevil attacks Hulk and gives him a wound, Nite Owl gives Hulk a wound, Hulk is enraged
-Hulk attacks Nite Owl but fails, ninjas move forward

Round 2: Hulk is still enraged, T1 wins initiative
-Hulk kills Nite Owl, ninjas move forward, gives Alfred a wound, give Cassie 2 wounds
-Cassie moves, Frank kills 2 ninja, Robin attacks Hulk but fails
-Hulk gives Daredevil 2 wounds, ninja move forward, attack Alfred but fail
-Cassie moves, Punisher fires a rocket at Hulk but fails, Robin kills a ninja
-Mystics move forward, ninjas move forward, give Punisher a wound
-Batgirl attacks Hulk but fails, Robin attacks Hulk but fails

Round 3: Hulk is no longer enraged, T1 wins initiative
-Hulk leaps and attacks Alfred, but fails, a ninja moves forward, one attacks Daredevil but fails, one gives Cass a wound
-Alfred extracts Daredevil, healing 1 wound for him, shotguns Hulk but fails
-Hulk kills Alfred, a ninja kills Cass, one attacks Tim but fails, one moves forward
-Daredevil gives Hulk 2 wounds, he is now enraged, Robin kills a ninja
-Hulk attacks Daredevil, who dodges, ninjas move forward, give Punisher 3 wounds, give Robin 3 wounds
-Batgirl engages Hulk and attacks, but ends up giving herself a wound instead,
Robin kills a ninja

Round 4: Hulk is still enraged, T1 wins initiative
-Hulk attacks Daredevil, who dodges, a ninja kills Robin
-Punisher fires a rocket at Hulk but fails
-Hulk kills Daredevil, ninjas move forward, one attacks Frank but fails
-Frank kills a ninja
-Hulk moves adjacent to Punisher, kills him
-Barbara gives Hulk 2 wounds

Round 5: Hulk is still enraged, T1 wins initiative
-Hulk kills Batgirl


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Hulk 6/7 life remaining, 3 Hand Mystic figures, 9 Hand Ninja figures

T1 had some good luck with initiative, also with ninjas dealing 6 wounds in a turn at one point
Hulk was extra powerful when he had backup.

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Island Plane Crash
Units: Team 1 (1,005): Deadpool (285), X-23 (220), Typhoid Mary (120), Hand Ninja x3 (255), Hand Mystics (125)
Team 2 (1,000): Cyclops II (240), Jean Grey (180), Wolverine (280), Gorgon (300)

Spoiler Alert!

Pre-game: Deadpool is a ninja

Round 1: T1 wins initiative
-Deadpool gives Jean 3 wounds
-Gorgon gives Deadpool a wound
-Deadpool kills Jean, heals himself
-Gorgon uses a Precog Strike to destroy a ninja
-Gorgon gives Deadpool 2 wounds

Round 2: T1 wins initiative
-Deadpool gets wounded then immediately heals
-Gorgon kills a ninja, a ninja gives Gorgon a wound
-Gorgon gives Deadpool 2 wounds
-Deadpool gives Cyclops 3 wounds
-A ninja kills Cyclops, another gives Logan a wound
-Deadpool gives Gorgon 2 wounds
-Gorgon destroys a ninja
-Logan heals

Round 3: T2 wins initiative
-Gorgon kills Deadpool
-Mary gives Gorgon a wound
-Gorgon kills 3 ninjas
-Hand Mystics move forward
-Logan kills a ninja
-Hand Mystics move forward, destroy Gorgon, brainwash him

Round 4: T2 wins initiative
-Logan kills a Mystic
-Hand Mystics run away
-Ninjas give Logan 2 wounds
-Logan kills a ninja, heals
-Gorgon gives Logan 3 wounds
-Logan gives Mary 3 wounds, heals
-X-23 gives Logan 2 wounds
-Logan heals

Round 5: T1 wins initiative
-Logan kills Mary, gives X-23 3 wounds, heals himself
-X-23 gives Logan 2 wounds
-Logan destroys X-23, heals himself
-Gorgon kills Logan


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Gorgon 0/6 wounds, 2 Hand Mystic figures, 1 Hand Ninja figure

The Mystics won this game for T1. If Gorgon hadn't been resurrected, or if Logan was able to kill the Mystics, T2 would've had a nice victory. Having a figure with Healing Factor and some bonding was nice, but it was nothing too wild.

___________________________________________________________​

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: I think these guys might be a bit low. They won both games, and didn't even get a Resurrection on the first one. Maybe that just has something to do with the armies I put them up against, but I think giving units like Hulk a bonding squad is pretty powerful. They allow you to squeeze more out of your OM with characters that used to be solo acts, more or less. The Resurrection is just icing on the cake, but on the bigger map, Ivy's Greenhouse I honestly wasn't sure if it was worth investing all the turns to get the Mystics across the field, when I could just be taking turns smashing stuff with Ninja Hulk. Being able to resurrect someone and then scatter with Phantom Walk means it's going to be harder for the opponent to get their figure back.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: My thoughts on this unit can be summed up by the boundless joy I felt while typing 'Hulk is a ninja now.' It was a blast to flip through the books looking for the silliest combinations I could come up with. There are a few I still want to try (Mr. Sinister for one) Bringing back another player's unit is a whole load of cheeky fun too.

Here you go! I tried a new write-up style on the 2nd test, let me know if it works or not.

 

[Yodaking]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Hulk ninja and Deadpool ninja do sound both fun and scary, although the Hand Mystics take the X away from Deadpool. It seems to me that your opponent really needs to make wiping out the Hand Mystics as fast as possible a priority, and if you leave one or more in the back of the start zone to try and keep them from harm then your opponent needs to send someone after them. Some armies will be better equipped to do this than others.

A little surprised the first army of vigilante's didn't do better, my plan would have been to send Daredevil & Robin across the board to eliminated the Hand Mystics, then have Alfred call one of them back to the main group. It looks like they got caught up fighting the Hulk though instead, with his Super Leap he can certainly put pressure on you pretty quickly.

 

[Arkham]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

It’s probably a case of testing privaledge. Some times, it’s just easy to not go in for the kill right away on a unit you are testing because you want to actually see what they can do. If you kill them right away then it feels like it offers no data. Squads in general, especially in this case, would be worth taking the leaving engagements to get rid of then. Especially with cyclops in the 2nd game being able to snipe them.

 

[Yodaking]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

True, not a good feeling when the unit you are testing dies in the first round of the game.

 

[Scapemage]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Digesting this test versus mine, I think the Mystics thrive on larger maps where it is more difficult to hunt them, and that's okay. Ivy's Greenhouse is a longer map, whereas the map I was playing on was much smaller and more of a rounded shape.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

It’s probably a case of testing privaledge. Some times, it’s just easy to not go in for the kill right away on a unit you are testing because you want to actually see what they can do. If you kill them right away then it feels like it offers no data. Squads in general, especially in this case, would be worth taking the leaving engagements to get rid of then. Especially with cyclops in the 2nd game being able to snipe them.

I think this phenomenon partially accounts for how Ventriloquist ended up at 90 points.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Yeah, I think the reluctance to kill off the test unit too quickly was definitely a factor in some of my early tests.

Fair point that the ability to run and hide on a bigger map is also going to make a difference.

I'm curious to see what Lobster's games look like, but I think from there we'll have enough data to make a call on the point cost. I could see them getting a bump. There are a lot of options for putting Hand builds together and these guys just blow it open even more, so I'm not worried about hitting some specific points target.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Any word on the tests, @L0B5T3R?

 

[L0B5T3R]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Hey my bad, I should have given an update. Two blowout victories for the Hand Mystic teams. My wife dropped my laptop and cracked the screen so I haven’t finished the playtest sheets.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Cool. Looking forward to the reports. Probably looking at a point bump, then.

 

[Yodaking]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Hey my bad, I should have given an update. Two blowout victories for the Hand Mystic teams. My wife dropped my laptop and cracked the screen so I haven’t finished the playtest sheets.

That sucks. At least Black Friday and the following Christmas sales are right around the corner. I picked up the laptop I'm currently using years ago on a Christmas sale for a good price.

 

[Ronin]

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Public Testing)

Oh wow. I was so eager to hear about the tests that I glossed over the 'cracked laptop' part. Apologies, didn't mean to say that was cool. Hopefully you can get it replaced or repaired without too much trouble.