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The Book of Hand Mystics

Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

I'd rather keep the mental shield clause just to avoid rules questions (especially in the delayed version). It's cleaner with that immunity spelled out. I am cool with the delay, though. That leaves us here:

HAND BRAINWASHING
At the start of the game, place one black Hand Marker on the card of a Unique Hero you control, and place one Hand Marker on this card. While there is an Order Marker on this card, any Hero you control with a Hand Marker on its card has the class of Ninja and a Ruthless personality instead of what is listed on its Army Card.

HAND RESURRECTION
When an opponent's Unique Hero that is within 3 clear sight spaces of a Hand Mystic and does not have the Mental Shield special power is destroyed, after that figure is removed from play you may place the Hand Marker from this card on its Army Card. If you do, take control of that Hero and its Army Card and remove all Wound Markers from its Army Card. At the end of the round, return that figure to play by placing it on any empty space within 3 spaces of a Hand Mystic you control. When all of your Hand Mystics are destroyed, return control of that Hero to the player that controlled it before it was Resurrected.
I like this quite a bit. A small thing I would recommend is having the resurrection remove all markers, not just wound markers. It would help deter strange strategies where you carry the Hand Mystics and maybe the Cosmic Cube over to your opponent's marker hub (full Lantern maybe, amped-up Creeper, other current or potential future marker users). This is a minor thing but I like trending lower in cost where possible.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

I actually started to change wound markers to just markers when I wrote up my version, as I was thinking Hex markers and Avengers or MoE should go away too, but then I realized you would be removing things like Kraven's Bola marker too and I couldn't justify that.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

Updated the SP with the current version - I don't especially want to nuke all the markers, since it's kind of a corner case where that's even helpful anyway.

If they need reined in, my go-to move would be to restrict them to figures destroyed by Ninja or destroyed by Ninja Squad figures.

Side note: I have the figure listed as the Hand Ninja figure from the Deadpool set, but I don't have it. If someone can get pictures of that one (or some alternate ninja mini we haven't already used, but I think the Deadpool one would be ideal) for me, I'd appreciate it.

Second side note: @dok @Dysole @Soundwarp SG-1 @weebaer Thoughts on the current SP? Do we need the 'destroyed by Ninja' limitation for the resurrection? I know I've seen dok lurking here already.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

The one and 1 and black Hand Marker and then just Hand Marker in the first power all reads as a bit inconsistent. That’s final editing stuff, though. The mechanics look solid. Might be cool to do an Elektra that starts with a black Hand Marker (though maybe we have already covered that theme for her).
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

Dangit, coulda sworn I already fixed the one/1 thing. (No "black" in the second reference to the Hand Marker feels a little weird to me, too, but that's our precedent)
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

Yeah, I've been lurking. This card takes my mind to strange places, for sure. Let's take these powers one at a time...

Brainwashing

My first thought is "what hero gets the most benefit by being able to bond with Ninjas/Masahiro/Kingpin"? If you have the points to nab some serious initiative boosters (Heimdall, or Iron Man (Avenger) with support, or sometimes Adam Warlock) then Iron Patriot looks pretty amazing here. This is one of the few notable chain-bonding opportunities. (Red Skull can already chain bond this with Hydra Agents, but it's usually harder to reap full benefit there as engaging Skullsy is risky as long as he's holding the cube.)

Setting aside IP, it's just "hey who's powerful, doesn't bond, and doesn't need the X". Of course, all these figures could just use general bonding options (Ms Marvel, etc) instead, so it's not mind-blowing. Graviton seems like he'd like it.

There's also funny possibilities with Star-Lord where you un-leader IP or Ms. Marvel so they can play in that build, although this is probably not generally worth it. A more interesting Star-Lord option would be some sort of high-point Justice League smuggling operation. Imagine an army of Star-Lord, MM2, Superman3, Azrael, either Daredevil1 or Hasbro Venom, either Drax2 or Wonder Woman 2, Masahiro Arashi, Baby Groot, and Hand Mystics. With the Hand marker on Supes3 or MM2, and the system Marker on Azrael, Supes3 and MM2 both get 5 Markers, Masahiro bonds with Azrael and your Brainwashed Ninja, Groot bonds with everyone, and you have the Star-Lord bonus. OK, that's a lot of points and maybe this is all still kind of niche but like I said this card takes me to strange places.

Resurrection

My first thought is that this one should have a no Android/Construct/Undead carve-out (and possibly should change the species to undead). An alternative would be to limit it to Humans, Mutates, and Mutants, since I think those are the only folks that actually get resurrected - and limiting options here might be safer.

While I tried pretty hard to break Brainwashing above, I am not sure I really succeeded. This one seems easier to break, though. Guaranteed resurrection is pretty strong, even if it carries some risk like it does here. It's hard to suggest builds here as the power is so dependent on your opponents. The bottom line is that this power leads to hiding the mystics and trying to destroy a high-value hero early in the game so you can bring them back and rush them out again.

Of course, Purple Man and Poison Ivy can do similar things, but both require activations to be in position. The passive nature of this power (works on any kill and from any distance) means that in some matchups it's going to be crazy.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

Resurrection requires the destroyed figure to be within 3 spaces of a Mystic - it doesn't work from any distance. Not sure how much that changes your figuring. More detailed thoughts in a few minutes.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

Oh, I saw the range limit on resurrecting but not on the death side. Yeah, that makes it much trickier to abuse. Probably requires some defensive abilities buried in your army (although the Superman build I mentioned does have that).
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

Do you think weird Star-Lord/JL stuff is going to pull them away from wanting to hang out with the Hand Ninja too much, or is that pretty strictly 'weird high-point shenanigans' army-building rather than bread-and-butter stuff?

Thoughts on the price?
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

My first thought was to use the SS restriction we've talked about on other powers to try and limit how powerful a figure you can brainwash, but then I saw Dok's later comment about humans/mutates/mutants. Race does seem a little more on point in terms of theme, I imagine the resurrection process they use is based on a human or near human physiology. Their resurrection process might not work on an alien, much less an android or undead. Not really sure though, who all have they resurrected in the comics? Have they ever tried to resurrect someone and the process failed?
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

I'd be okay with a Species restriction here. I see where you're coming from in terms of Brainwashing army building dok, as this was the concern I had as well. That said, your analysis makes me feel better about it and I envision some pretty interesting armies forming around these guys, which I am generally a proponent of.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

That I know of, they've resurrected Elektra, Gorgon (the Mutant, not the Inhuman), Northstar, Doc Ock, Spot, Bullseye, White Tiger (Angela), and Black Tarantula. Probably others that I'm not up on.

I think allegedly they resurrected the Skrull that impersonated Elektra, but she was probably feigning death to begin with.

Humans, Mutates and Mutants would be a reasonable restriction.
 
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Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

I thought about no-SS as well but Gorgon and BlackT break that.

Do you think weird Star-Lord/JL stuff is going to pull them away from wanting to hang out with the Hand Ninja too much, or is that pretty strictly 'weird high-point shenanigans' army-building rather than bread-and-butter stuff?
The whole point of Ninja-fying your unit in general is to get the bonding activation with Masahiro or Hand Ninjas. Yes, there's that peculiar JL/Star-Lord backdoor stuff but as you say tha's mostly high-point shennanigans. Even in that crazy SL/JL army I'm including Masahiro.

One big test at 2250 points or whatever might be reasonable to try but it's not likely to drive the cost in general.

Thoughts on the price?
It's a very hard one to guess for sure. I think this resurrection is worse than Zola's, and Zola fits a fair collection of other tricks under the hood for 200 points. Jackal can resurrect Mutates, albeit poorly, for 255 points.

For Hand Mystics, the inconsistency comes not from a roll but from having to be near the dying figure and needing to stay alive afterwards. That's actually a tight needle to thread and would often require some defensive figures supporting them. I'm thinking low 100s? A boom or bust squad at that price - they will very rarely be worth that much; it will usually be much more or much less..
 
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Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

Alright, thanks for the analysis dok.

I stripped out the Mental Shield immunity and put the species restrictions in both powers. Mental Shield call-out would have been nice, but I think it's ultimately expendable especially with the species requirement - it all works out to a bit too much text.

I propose we move the Hand Mystics to initial testing at 125.
Yodaking - yea
japes - yea
ZJ - yea
Scapemage - yea

Probably gonna slow-roll the initial and try to run a bunch of games, since they're a swingy unit.
 
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Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

I think if you leave 1 in the start zone you can reasonably expect the ressurection to occur if the first part takes place. I agree that first part (needing to be close when someone dies) could be difficult. I think the Hand Ninja will need to be used as a screen to keep figures from attacking the mystic. Maybe include the Foot as well to help with the screening process for the Mystics.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Design)

I think if you leave 1 in the start zone you can reasonably expect the ressurection to occur if the first part takes place. I agree that first part (needing to be close when someone dies) could be difficult. I think the Hand Ninja will need to be used as a screen to keep figures from attacking the mystic. Maybe include the Foot as well to help with the screening process for the Mystics.

I think there's definitely some tension between wanting to keep one back (to make it easier to keep them alive after you've resurrected someone) and wanting to move them all forward (to make it easier to actually pull off the resurrection in the first place). It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (VOTE Initial)

Lets see how this plays out YEA

HA!!! Ronin Ninja'd me (how appropriate) with the same comment.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (VOTE Initial)

Yea, looking good here. I have no doubt they'll be boom or bust as dok is saying but some units should play that way.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (VOTE Initial)

Not following closely enough to vote, but following the rules closely enough to know that this passes under the new rules where a Hero/Legend's proposal counts as a vote.
 
Re: The Book of Hand Mystics (Initial Testing)

Don't let Daredevil Season 3 come out before this initial, Ronin! :razz:
 
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