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The Book of Green Arrow (Oliver Queen) (Justice League)

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Green Arrow (JL)

Army Test 1
Map: Modified Grundy’s Grave
Units: Team 1 (1,000): Green Arrow (220), Black Canary (190), Hawkeye II (160), Thor (430)
Team 2 (1,000): Baron Zemo (Heinrich) (170), Zatanna II (220), Martian Manhunter I (300), Spider-Man (Miles) (170), Diablo (140)


Pre-game thoughts: Plan here is to distract the enemy from GA as long as possible with juicer targets, hopefully letting him get a good number of shots in.

Summary of the game:
Spoiler Alert!

Post-game thoughts: It really looked like Team 2 had this in the bag after denying 2 whole rounds of action due to Zemo and a lucky Diablo. But once Thor fell, GA and Canary put in some serious work to turn that loss into a win. The Cupid’s Arrow/Arrow to the Rescue combo on top of whatever Canary is doing is pretty powerful.
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Army Test 2
Map: Modified Grundy’s Grave
Units: Team 1 (990): Green Arrow (220), Captain America (240), Black Canary I (190), Punisher (210), Nite Owl (130)
Team 2 (990): Cosmic Boy (260), Saturn Girl (220), Lightning Lad (180), Superboy (330)


Pre-game thoughts: Was originally going to go in a more JL-oriented direction here, but pivoted. Planning to lead with Nite Owl bonding, then transition to Arrow bonding later.

Summary of the game:
Spoiler Alert!

Post-game thoughts: Ollie did pretty decent here, but he wasn’t quite as crazy as last game. Cosmic Boy wasn’t rolling hot today, which was also a big factor.
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THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: He still feels like he might be coming in a little hot. He’s a really decent boost to your offense, especially with an attack booster and some height, and his long range makes him much more easy to protect than Nebula, who really wants to be in the thick of things. Black Canary feels like a near auto-draft.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: He’s a lot of fun. Didn’t play him with any of the other JL designs, but seems like he’ll be a great addition to a faction that would really like some additional efficiency.
Here you go!
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Thanks Nobody! I'm thinking of bumping him 20 points and giving him a go myself for a couple games. Could raise his d20 roll again a little too, or maybe reduce defense - though I doubt reducing defense would affect too much.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

I'm not sure that he should go up any higher, personally. Not sure that 1st game's enemy army was competitively ideal, and the 2nd game was a close win. Worried any more nerfing/raising is gonna see him underpowered like we did with some of the others.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

I wouldn't up his D20 any. I would consider running another test against a stronger army with him as is and see how it feels.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Sounds like a plan. I'll run some tests this weekend. :up:
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

With Game 2 it ending as close as it did, I think Arkham is right. GA putting 3-4 wounds on Clark in a single attack seems like a pretty massive whiff on Clark's part, especially since GA was throwing a max of 5 die at that point if he did have height. Heck game 1 looks like he overperformed probably just because Diablo is an easy, high life target for Ollie.

Ultimately doing something to curb the Black Canary combo may just have to happen, because that seems to be too volatile an element in his costing right now.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

I can agree with Ark and LV's analysis. Game 1's enemy army was scary at first, with 2 whole rounds of turn denial and being able to take out Thor, but once the Canary/Arrow machine got chugging, they just ripped through all the other weak defense characters. I guess that's part of my worry (seeing those 2 decimate a large portion of an army), but it's also just 2 solid characters taking out a bunch of cheaper ones.

Game 2 could've very easily been a loss if Cos had succeeded in one or two Tosses. The Legion really lives or dies on that D20 roll. Also a good matchup for Arrow, who is able to outrange the defensive gimmicks from Cos and Imra. I believe Ollie actually took down Clark over the course of 2 attacks on the same turn, so that wasn't just a total whiff.

I just think that Canary/Arrow combo is a real powerhouse (assuming you can keep Canary alive for a while.) Throw in an attack booster and put Arrow on height (Grundy's Grave has a perfect sniper spot) and you're getting at least 2 attacks of 6 per turn, with a potential of up to 8.

Just an odd thought, what if Vigilante was switched out for another class in his first power? Would deincentivize the Canary pairing just a little bit, especially in smaller games, without straight-up shutting it down.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

I'd say all you'd need for shutting it down would make the multiattack only work when Ollie is taking a turn. Then he still works with her, just not quite as well. If you did make it only work when taking a turn like that, I'd probably want to see something like changing the Marker requirement for the multi attack being something like starting the player turn with it, because as is, you're typically leaving the last marker on indefinitely.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

I like that idea.
ARROWS OF JUSTICE
At the start of the game, place 1 blue Justice League Marker on this card for each Unique Hero you control with the class of Archer, Champion, Officer, or Vigilante to a maximum of 4. If there is at least one Justice League Marker on this card, after Green Arrow attacks a non-adjacent figure with his normal attack on his turn, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 14 or higher, Green Arrow may attack again. Green Arrow may not attack more than four times in a player turn.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Might be worth cutting the immediately on the free turn if you do that? Probably safe letting him take a turn after the free Black Canary attack if you do that change you just put out there.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Units: Green Arrow (II) (220), Black Canary (I) (190), Green Arrow (Connor Hawke) (130), Batman (III) (250), Wonder Woman (III) (310) (1,000)


Building armies for my tests and I noticed that Bats played his army with 100 extra points. That adds up to 1100! :p

Edit- scratch that, the other armies were incorrectly listed at 1000 too, but they also added up to 1100. :lol:
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Might be worth cutting the immediately on the free turn if you do that? Probably safe letting him take a turn after the free Black Canary attack if you do that change you just put out there.

Doesn’t it already work like that? That’s how I played it, based on the discussion here.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Ah. I was going off Archie's intent of not stacking it he mentioned when putting that in on the initial.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Oof, well that's a significant nerf! I guess I still like the Canary pairing with him, but it definitely lessens his impact big time. Probably a point drop at that point.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

I think its necessary because you're either going to jack his point up too much, or risk almost invalidating Green Arrow I with all the multiattacking. He's definitely still a good partner with her, they just aren't quite as much of a machine anymore. They were real dangerous when paired with Dick, because he could keep Dinah alive even longer.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Yeah, that's valid. And I don't mind his cost going down some if that happens.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Is there a way to word it to make you choose between Black Canary's Cupid's Arrow attack and the Arrows to the Rescue turn? I just figured it was an inevitability.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

ARROW TO THE RESCUE
After revealing an Order Marker on the card of another Unique Hero you control and taking a turn with that Hero, if Green Arrow has not yet attacked this player turn, you may immediately remove one Justice League Marker from this card and take a turn with Green Arrow. During this turn, he may only attack opponent’s figures engaged to a figure you control. You may not take any additional turns with figures you control.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Maybe remove the immediately? Way I’m reading it now, he can just choose to use AttR first, then Cupid’s Arrow.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

Yeah I think cutting the immediately will remove ambiguity on order there. Makes it clearer which happens first, I think.
 
Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (public testing)

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Green Arrow (II)

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Green Arrow (II) (220), Black Canary (I), Batman (III), Wonder Woman (III) (970) VS Nightwing, Raven, Starfire, Miss Martian, Aqualad (Kaldur’ahm) (970)
Spoiler Alert!

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Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Green Arrow (II) (220), Black Canary (I), Batman (III), Wonder Woman (III) (970) VS Captain America (C3G), Punisher, Vision, Iron Man (Hasbro) (975)
Spoiler Alert!


THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Felt good, definitely not overpowered with this version. I put him against some pretty strong teams and the JL team came up short each time - though both games were close. I purposefully had the opposing team ignore Green Arrow for the most part which I felt was a good strategy when facing him. Acrobatic Movement makes it hard to pin down Green Arrow, so go after his allies early on instead.

I’d play him as-is, so I’m good moving on with the current design.
 
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