The Book of Green Arrow (Oliver Queen) (Justice League)

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

24 hours has passed, so the breathing period is up. I updated the second post with this:

ARROWS OF JUSTICE
At the start of the game, place 1 blue Justice League Marker on this card for each Unique Hero you control with the class of Archer, Champion, Officer, or Vigilante to a maximum of 4. If at least 1 Justice League Marker is on this card, after Green Arrow attacks a non-adjacent figure with his normal attack, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 12 or higher, Green Arrow may attack again, up to a maximum of four attacks in a turn.

ARROW TO THE RESCUE
After revealing an Order Marker on the card of a Unique Hero you control and taking a turn with that Hero, you may remove one Justice League Marker from this card and take a turn with Green Arrow. During this turn, he may only attack opponent’s figures engaged to a figure you control. You may not take any additional turns with figures you control.

ACROBATIC MOVEMENT
Green Arrow never takes falling damage and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. After rolling attack dice for a normal attack or after rolling defense dice, for each shield rolled you may immediately move Green Arrow one space up to 6 levels up or down.

I went with the rewording/reordering of effects that has been suggested along with Bats' & Arkham's suggestions for the d20 roll for a double attack.

 

[Lord Pyre]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

Looks good! Still potentially 4 attacks of 4 could be devastating, but it's kept in check by the d20. Excited to see how he plays!

 

[LordVenoc]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

GA II, Hawkeye III, Red Arrow, and Speedy (Mia) sounds like a very very strong core here. Throw in Bats III for an even 900 or go to 950 with Black Canary and Oracle.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

I think that'll be fun! And, yeah, JL Green Arrow, JL Batman, and JL Wonder Woman should be a good trio!

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

Speedy (Mia) isn't doing much there, but I like those ideas!

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

Yeah, Red Arrow works with her, but he also works with Archers, so he doesn't really need her. Someone like Connor Hawke might make more sense.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

I believe Green Arrow (Connor Hawke), Red Arrow, Green Arrow (II) (200), Hawkeye (III) adds up to 700 and gets you 4 markers. Batman (III) takes it to 950.

 

[LordVenoc]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

I believe Green Arrow (Connor Hawke), Red Arrow, Green Arrow (II) (200), Hawkeye (III) adds up to 700 and gets you 4 markers. Batman (III) takes it to 950.

Good call. Connor is definitely the better pick there. I think my brain was still in trying to weird stack stuff that I was doing days ago, but definitely the better play. And gives more versatility if you bring in Dinah and Oracle to bring it to 1000. Bats may well be the better play there with 2 D20 powers floating around, but could be a real real strong 1250 point bunch.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

Wonder Woman (III) (310), Green Arrow (II) (200), Batman (III) (250), Green Arrow (Connor Hawke) (130), Oracle (110) (1,000) might be a solid one too. I believe that maxes out all the JL markers and Batman has three D20 users to boost. Batman and Oracle are a tad redundant, but I'm not sure there's a better filler at 110 points even with that.

 

[johnny139]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

Looks cool. I might suggest that, instead of requiring a JL marker to get the multi-attack, you can burn a marker to boost the odds of the multi-attack (and make the base odds lower), but that might step on Batman's toes a bit too much if that's a goal build for him.

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

Thanks for the army build suggestions.

Yeah, I think it'd be best to avoid factional overlap with another way to boost the d20. Especially since Batman is a rather thematic ally for Green Arrow, so it'd be nice to encourage them to play together.

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

COMPETITIVE REVIEW BOARD CHECKLIST

Spoiler Alert!

Efficiency- Check to see if your design is providing armies with turns/moves/etc. to a degree that would make it difficult or impossible for an opponent to keep up with your output.

1. Does your design allow itself or figures to move/attack/take a turn/etc. instead of/in addition to your normal turn for revealing an Order Marker? Is it granting these benefits to too broad a range of units? Does it combine with other powers to create overly long or powerful chains of actions?
Yes, but it requires a certain build to get the markers, does not allow additional turns if Green Arrow bonds, requires him to attack engaged figures, and is limited to 4x a game unless you have marker replacement shenanigans.

2. Does your design allow you to take actions during an opponent's turn? Can it combine with other powers to create tediously long reactions to enemy actions or a restrictive environment?
N/A

3. Does your design allow you to rearrange your Order Markers or otherwise bypass the costs of Order Marker requirements on the special powers of other figures?
N/A

4. Is your design doing anything outside of a player's turn, at the start or end of the round? Is the effect too powerful by itself or when combined with other powers?
N/A

5. Does your design have any powers that trigger anytime it moves as opposed to only when it moves normally on its turn? Will it be too efficient when combined with figures that grant extra moves to figures?
Acrobatic Movement is always active, but it's a reuse and yeah it's okay if it works with movement bonding.

6. Is your design adding or subtracting from initiative rolls? Will it pair too easily with other figures that alter initiative or have powers triggering on the results of initiative rolls?
N/A

Potency- Check to see if your design is wounding/removing/etc. enemy figures, increasing the chances of other figures in your army doing so, or otherwise directly effecting the number of figures available to players to a degree that would make it difficult or impossible for an opponent to recover from.

1. Does your design have a chance to inflict wounds or destroy figures? Is it getting these chances too frequently or having to high a chance of success? Is the power balanced against expensive targets that can cause a massive swing in the game when destroyed?
N/A

2. Is your design adding to the stats or 20-sided die rolls of other figures in your army? Is it a boosting a broad enough range of units effectively enough to become a 'mandatory' draft or inhibit future design space? Can it be combined with other boosts too easily?
N/A

3. Will your design benefit from stat boosts or other enhancement to an overpowering degree? Will it restrict future growth within its faction or point cost by limiting available boosts to others?
Green Arrow does benefit from stat boosts since he has the potential for multi attacks. That is somewhat by design as Wonder Woman (III) offers stat boosts, and I doubt Green Arrow will limit design space too much.

4. Does your design take control of enemy figures permanently or temporarily? Is it too difficult to for your opponent to regain control of their figure or recover from the losing the figure? Does the method of taking control expose the enemy figure to the powers of other figures in your army that can easily destroy it?
N/A

5. Can your design heal itself or others or revive itself or others? Is it doing so in a way that an opponent cannot hope to overcome in certain scenarios?
N/A

6. Does your design place enemy figures on its card or otherwise have an unconventional method of temporarily removing enemy figures from play? Will it guarantee your victory against a single remaining enemy figure?
N/A

Chicanery- Check to see if your design is preventing your opponent from taking actions with too much ease or is otherwise causing negative play experience through tactics that make your opponent feel you're 'not playing fair'

1. Does your design restrict the movement of enemy figures, or allow you to move enemy figures? Can it do so in a way that results in an unwinnable scenario for your opponent if they are down to one figure, posses only figures with a range of 1, etc.? Can your design easily combine with other figures to greatly impede enemy figures or otherwise gain an excessive advantage?
N/A

2. Does your design effect/change the placement of an enemy's Order Markers, or remove their Order Markers entirely? Can it force Order Markers to go onto cards that have no figures on the battlefield? Can your design easily combine with other figures to completely dictate the placement of an enemy's Order Markers or remove all of their Order Markers?
N/A

3. Does your design inhibit your opponent from attacking your figures or make attacking a losing proposition? Are there scenarios or combinations that make your opponent totally unable to harm your figures through attacking?
N/A

4. Does your design directly negate the powers of enemy figures or otherwise ignore them in a way that can completely disrupt the opponent's strategy or leave them feeling like they are stuck playing figures without special powers?
N/A

5. Does your design become overly powerful in a podded group of figures, or provide significant benefit to your army without leaving your Start Zone?
I guess he could stay in the start zone due to his long range, but Green Arrow's powers allow him to be pretty mobile and he'll want to grab height.

6. You can attack your own figures in Heroscape, does your design have any powers that will trigger off of doing so or otherwise wounding/destroying your own figures? Is this intentional on your part? Will the design be too efficient or potent when doing so?
N/A

CONSISTENCY CHECKLIST (LONG FORM)

Spoiler Alert!

1. Are the character’s name and secret identity listed in a consistent format with the rest of the project? If the character shares a name and/or secret identity with another character is it properly clear whether or not they are the same character?
Consistent with Green Arrow (I).

2. Consider the listed Species. Are the design’s power level, point level, and statistics (life, move, range, attack, and defense numbers) within the established range for that species? If it’s an outlier, is there thematic justification for this?
Consistent.

3. Consider the listed Uniqueness. Does the power text properly reflect whether the figure is a Hero or a squad, and whether it is Event, Unique, Uncommon, or common? If it’s Event, are the powers written with consideration for Event Hero rules? If it’s Uncommon, are the powers written to avoid stacking? If it’s common, are the powers written with this in mind?
Unique Hero, standard stuff.

4. Consider the Class and Personality. For each, is it a reuse? If so, is the character thematically consistent with other members of that Class or Personality? If not, is there a preexisting Class or Personality that would fit as well that could be used instead? Are there any existing synergies with that Class or Personality that are undesirable or that this Design would create that would be undesirable for preexisting members of that Class or Personality?
Champion - classic JLA class to give him those synergies.
Charming - no synergies & a reuse.

5. Consider the listed Size. If the figure is double based, is it Large or Huge? Is the chosen miniature’s physical size consistent with other miniatures in the chosen size category?


6. Consider the listed Height. If you stack hexes up next to the figure, does the number listed for the height match up the layers of stacked hexes that match the miniature’s physical height?
Medium 5, all good.

7. Consider the listed Life number. Is this number consistent with other figures of the same species?
4 is standard human life.

8. Consider the listed Move number. Is this number consistent with other figures of that power level?
5 is standard human move.

9. Consider the listed Range and Attack numbers. Is this number consistent with other figures that use the same type of weapon or power to attack?
8 range is typical for archers, and actually low for Green Arrow, as original Green Arrow and Red Arrow have 10 range. But slightly lower range is for balance reasons as this Green Arrow can attack multiple times.

10. Consider the listed Defense number. Is this number consistent with other figures of the same or similar species and with the same or similar armor or other defensive equipment?
4-5 would be thematic.

11. Does the figure have Super Strength? If it does or doesn’t, was this determined on the standard of that character demonstrating three things: A. The ability to throw a car B. The ability to survive a fall from a tall building and C. The ability to knock back another person when punching them?
No super strength.

12. Examine all of the special powers. Are there other powers that fit the same theme already in existence in the project? If so, can they be reused? If they can’t, can those other powers be used as a basis for the mechanics and wording?
Already reused Acrobatic Movement. Based the wording on the others on other designs.

13. Examine any movement powers. Do they keep the figure’s speed consistent with other figures of their species and power level?
Acrobatic Movement doesn't offer too much additional movement.

14. Examine any offensive powers. Do they keep the figure’s offensive potential consistent with other figures with the same powers and power levels or skills and weaponry?
Straight up double attack would be better, so I'm not worried about the occasional turn with 3-4 attacks. This Green Arrow is going to be a little swingy.

15. Examine any defensive, healing, or other tanking powers. Do they keep the figure’s survivability consistent with other figures of the same powers or power level or species and armor class?
N/A

16. Examine any leadership powers. Do they exceed the activation potential of the best existing leaders? If so, is there thematic justification for this?
N/A

17. Consider any powers that reference darkness, electrical, figure movement, fire, gas, ice, kryptonite, light/sensory, magical, poison, psychic, stealth, or water-based abilities. Do these behave in similar ways to other powers of this type, including mentions of immunities?
N/A

18. Is it clear for all special powers what phase of the turn and how they are triggered, what phase of the turn they are active in, and when and how they cease being active?
Should be clear.

19. Are special powers listed in game, round, and turn order?
Yep.

20. If a special power includes a D20 roll, does it make sense to list a number by the title?
I wouldn't mention it here since Arrows of Justice has some other stuff going on.

21. If a power is being reused, are the title and wording copied accurately?
Yep.

22. Has the power title or a very similar one been used before with vastly different mechanics?
Nope.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

Pre-yea for initial!

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (design)

I'll go ahead and propose for initial playtesting.

 

[Arkham]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for initial)

yea

 

[tcglkn]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for initial)

Yea

 

[Lord Pyre]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for initial)

Yea

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for initial)

With 5 yeas counting my proposal, this passes.

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (waiting for initial)

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Green Arrow (II)

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Green Arrow (Ollie) (II) (200), Red Arrow, Green Arrow (Connor), Hawkeye (III), Black Canary (I), Oracle (1000) VS F4 (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Ollie gets all 4 markers. Hawkeye makes both Green Arrows and Black Canary into Avengers.

Round 1: The JLA/Avengers meet the F4. Reed ties down Hawkeye though each takes a wound from the other. Ollie burns a JL marker to attack Reed twice, but fails to hit either time. Johnny puts 3 wounds on Connor.

Round 2: Black Canary uses fists of fury + Oracle’s autoskull to bring Reed to 4 wounds right off the bat, then Ollie attacks with Cupid’s Arrow. Ollie then burns a JL marker to take a turn, getting one attack at Reed which is blocked. Reed rolls a 1 and so just stretches behind his allies. Black Canary then unleashes a 4-skull Canary Cry hitting all members of the Fan4, killing Reed (lost OM2+3) and wounding Johnny and Sue. The JLA/Avengers cannot capitalize on this advantage however, and all that happens for the rest of the round is that Connor gets killed by Thing’s Rock Wall Defense.

Round 3: Black Canary one-shots Sue. Ollie then rolls 4 skulls against Johnny’s 0 shields, killing him (lost OM1). Black Canary attacks Thing, wounding him, then Ollie burns a JL marker to inflict a further 2 wounds on Thing with a single attack. Thing finally takes out Black Canary. Hawkeye puts a 4th wound on Thing. Thing puts 2 wounds on Hawkeye.

Round 4: Thing takes out Hawkeye. Green and Red Arrow miss Thing. Thing puts 2 wounds on Green Arrow. Green and Red Arrow miss Thing. Thing misses Green Arrow. Green Arrow takes out Thing.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Green Arrow Ollie (2 wounds, 1 JL marker), Red Arrow, Oracle win.

Very strong showing here, but Black Canary had some pretty insane luck. Green Arrow felt good though - I was always getting multiple attacks in this army.

___________________________________________________________​

I’m changing Arrow to the Rescue to say “immediately” to avoid Green Arrow’s extra turn stacking with Black Canary’s Cupid’s Arrow. You should have to choose between them. Also clarified that the first turn needs to be another figure, you can’t take a turn with Green Arrow then remove a marker to get another turn with him.

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Green Arrow (Ollie) (II) (200), Batman (III), Wonder Woman (III), Green Arrow (Connor), Oracle (1000) VS Nightwing, Raven, Starfire, Miss Martian, Cyborg (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1: Justice League and Titans face off. The Titans can’t get past Wonder Woman’s bracelets. Connor Hawke ends the round by shooting 2 wounds on Raven.

Round 2: Wonder Woman spends a JL marker. Batman misses his attack on Miss Martian. Cyborg one-shots Batman (3 of his JL markers are sent to Green Arrow, 1 to Wonder Woman), then Raven and Nightwing bring Wonder Woman to 3 wounds. Wonder Woman wounds Raven then Green Arrow spends a marker to do the same. Cyborg misses Green Arrow. Connor wounds Raven, then Green Arrow spends a marker and finishes off Raven with 2 attacks. Starfire ends the round by wounding Connor.

Round 3: Wonder Woman spends a JL marker. Wonder Woman one-shots Starfire. Titans Go! takes out Wonder Woman. Connor wounds Cyborg, then Green Arrow spends a JL marker to attack once but misses. Cyborg misses. Connor wounds Cyborg, then Green Arrow spends a JL marker to attack once but misses. Miss Martian puts 2 wounds on Connor.

Round 4: Titans Go takes out Connor Hawke and puts 2 wounds on Green Arrow. Green Arrow gets 3 attacks, wounding Cyborg twice. Miss Martian takes out Green Arrow then puts 2 wounds on Oracle.

Round 5: Oracle wounds Nightwing but Titans Go takes her out.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Nightwing (1 wound), Cyborg (4 wounds), Miss Martian (0 wounds) win.

Green Arrow got a few nice wounds here, but nothing too impactful. Batman falling so early really hurt the Justice League team.

___________________________________________________________​

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Green Arrow (Ollie) (II) (200), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), Black Canary (I), Hawkeye (II) (900) VS Captain America (C3G), Iron Man (Hasbro), Punisher, Bronze Tiger (900)

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1: Hawkeye carries Black Canary up, then she punches Cap to no avail. Green Arrow spends a JL marker to get close and shoot at Cap 3 times, but is blocked each time. Punisher kills Black Canary with his Cap-boosted assault rifle.

Round 2: Cap puts 3 wounds on Hawkeye with his shield. Green Lantern puts 3 wounds on Cap, then Green Arrow spends a JL marker for one useless attack on Cap. Punisher is blocked. Green Lantern wounds Cap then Green Arrow spends a JL marker to finish him off.

Round 3: Punisher finishes off Hawkeye. Iron Man gets Green Lantern to 3 wounds. Green Lantern takes out Punisher.

Round 4: Green Lantern wins initiative and nails a fearless charge roll which lets him take out Iron Man in one turn. (Lost OM 1+2.) Green Lantern then takes out Bronze Tiger from range.


Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Green Lantern (3 wounds, 4 batteries) and Green Arrow (0 wounds, 1 JL marker) win.

This was Green Lantern’s win, but Green Arrow getting the kill on Captain America was a key point in the battle. Green Arrow didn’t do much besides that.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Felt pretty good at 200. Could see him going up slightly in public testing due to his flexibility. Green Arrow offers some useful extra turns but he’s also fairly reliant on the d20. He’s really mobile which is fun - I tried to use him as a blocker in the last game but it ended up not being necessary. There’s fun tension when you’re down to 1 marker - do you spend it to get an extra Green Arrow turn, or do you keep it for the potential double attacks?

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for public testing)

I propose we send Green Arrow to public testing.

 

[tcglkn]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for public testing)

Yea

 

[Lord Pyre]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for public testing)

Yea

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for public testing)

Hmm, Cupid's Arrow isn't an additional turn, just an out of turn attack. I think they still stack, even with the immediately?

 

[Arch-vile]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for public testing)

With both powers saying "immediately" and triggering at the same time, my thought it that once you do one power, you can no longer immediately do the other as the timing trigger has passed.

 

[IAmBatman]

Re: The Book of Green Arrow (II) (vote for public testing)

I think that just means they trigger at the same time and you have to choose the order.