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The Book of General Zod
- Thread starter Griffin
- Start date
johnny139
Never CoN a CoN man
My issue isn't with the idea of changing the card - well, it is, but I was already outvoted on that, so I'll accept it as inevitable 
- but with the exact implementation. I believe Zod could be made more fun by simply tweaking the implementation of his Spy power and dropping his price by a good chunk.
In particular, I think the Kryptonian Soldiers are undertested here, as that's probably going to be the most useful effect. So sticking at 380 is definitely a red flag for me at bare minimum. Lobster only had one Soldier in his first test, and Zod went down very quickly in the second. quozl stuck with just two per army, which introduces the Unique Squad problem - one goes down and you're suddenly at half efficiency. So we're essentially at two tests that used New Zod to his fullest, both from AV, who came out of it thinking he could probably use a bump. So, speaking purely on an evaluation level, I think we'd need some more tests with a bigger pool of Kryptonian Soldiers at his command.
Frankly, at this point it feels less like we're fixing Zod, and more like we're fixing the Kryptonian Soldiers.
But maybe that's what people were hoping for? They're definitely the weakest link in his mini-faction.
- but with the exact implementation. I believe Zod could be made more fun by simply tweaking the implementation of his Spy power and dropping his price by a good chunk.In particular, I think the Kryptonian Soldiers are undertested here, as that's probably going to be the most useful effect. So sticking at 380 is definitely a red flag for me at bare minimum. Lobster only had one Soldier in his first test, and Zod went down very quickly in the second. quozl stuck with just two per army, which introduces the Unique Squad problem - one goes down and you're suddenly at half efficiency. So we're essentially at two tests that used New Zod to his fullest, both from AV, who came out of it thinking he could probably use a bump. So, speaking purely on an evaluation level, I think we'd need some more tests with a bigger pool of Kryptonian Soldiers at his command.
Frankly, at this point it feels less like we're fixing Zod, and more like we're fixing the Kryptonian Soldiers.
But maybe that's what people were hoping for? They're definitely the weakest link in his mini-faction.
That's a really good point johnny. A couple more games with Kryptonian Soldiers would help.
Personally I'm all for big changes when doing these re-evaluations. It's a change to the design anyway, so we might as well fix the entire faction as best as possible when a power isn't working as intended.
Personally I'm all for big changes when doing these re-evaluations. It's a change to the design anyway, so we might as well fix the entire faction as best as possible when a power isn't working as intended.
I feel that's an unfair question and not at all what Johnny is saying. No one's asking you to pick one of these versions at 380...that's an easy answer to everyone. But would you draft the new one at 380 vs the old one at say 340?
Also I'm not technically voting these days but I'd be with Johnny with a Nay here from personal experience. We have been playing original and at 400 with only changing the soldier option and he never felt out of place and this version even has a better Spy option than the original which is why I commented earlier about feeling 380 seemed off.
Edit: I did finally watch man of steel last week so an Army of kryptonite is something I'm looking forward to.
I'm the opposite as a rule. Any figure than can be "fixed" by just adjusting points is way more attractive to me. Anything that needs big changes just needs a new version.
My issue isn't with the idea of changing the card - well, it is, but I was already outvoted on that, so I'll accept it as inevitable
I'm glad you clarified. At the moment, your vote was only accomplishing blocking any changes on the card, so it's good that you came back and are at least suggesting an alternate possibility here.
Not to belabor the point (as I think you're going to find yourself outvoted on implementation as well) but I'm not sure what you mean by tweaking the implementation of the Spy power, other than perhaps encouraging people to play it as intended?
Not keen on seeing his price dropped a good chunk, both because it feels unthematic for him to be way cheaper than Superman and because 40-60 points doesn't really do anything for his faction or his viability within it.
More tests seems like a fair request and I'm on board with it.
Frankly, at this point it feels less like we're fixing Zod, and more like we're fixing the Kryptonian Soldiers.
Can't it be both? The way to fix the Kryptonian Soldiers is through Zod and the way to fix Zod is by having him work better with the Kryptonian Soldiers.
Before johnny posted a clarification, that's exactly what his vote was accomplishing. A Nay to the tested changes would be a Nay to alteration here, meaning that's the option we'd be left with.
I'm glad he DID clarify, though, and I think my questioning may have gotten him to do so. I don't think my questioning was at all unfair based on his initial vote, though.
johnny139
Never CoN a CoN man
For the Spy power - yes, essentially just a wording clarification to make sure it's played as was originally intended.
For Kryptonian Soldier stuff, my concern is that if that option becomes his obvious "best choice," his point cost and army builds will be shaped around that combination, and what viability he has as a generalist Kryptonian leader (which, admittedly, isn't much to begin with) will be sort of tossed aside. I think a smaller tweak to the Soldier option (moving with one and attacking with another, moving two OR attacking with two, moving OR attacking with two) would be more moderate, not drive a major point increase, and help keep his three leadership options balanced.
For Kryptonian Soldier stuff, my concern is that if that option becomes his obvious "best choice," his point cost and army builds will be shaped around that combination, and what viability he has as a generalist Kryptonian leader (which, admittedly, isn't much to begin with) will be sort of tossed aside. I think a smaller tweak to the Soldier option (moving with one and attacking with another, moving two OR attacking with two, moving OR attacking with two) would be more moderate, not drive a major point increase, and help keep his three leadership options balanced.
We already voted to change this card, and to make the change that was tested. Trying to redo that vote now during a final editing vote is in poor taste. I agree in holding up the Final Editing vote over cost concerns though and would have done so myself if I still had a vote.
I see the same thing Johnny just highlighted about the new version not being tested with 3+ soldiers much, or conversely 3+ spies. I don't see much value in mixing the soldiers & spies together, either sell out on doing one thing or the other if you are trying to win.
It looked to me after Arch's tests that 400 seems fair for the new changes, and I would have thought that vote would have passed no problem. No longer seeing 380 being realistic for new Zod. If more tests are needed, then these would be the two army tests I'd suggest running.
Game 1: Zod@400, Kryptonian Soldier x4 = 1200 points.
Game 2: Zod@400, Ursa, Kryptonian Infiltrator x2 [950] + Zoom = 1200 points.
Put them up against some JL armies. One with Superman, one without. First army is really simple, just 2 soldiers every time until you are down to 1 soldier, then Zod joins the fight and tries to clean up whatever is left in play.
Second army takes a bit more finesse. Initially Zoom gets 2OM's while Zod just gets one. Have Zoom run around keeping the opponent focused on him, while Zod orders Ursa to advance into the fight. Hopefully by the time Zoom goes down, one or more of the Infiltrators have dropped into the fight and Zod will be getting all the OM's with Ursa & and at least 1 Infiltrator already adj. to opponents figures. Use the unblockable option when it looks attractive, normal bonding when that looks like the better play. Zod once again plays clean up.
I see the same thing Johnny just highlighted about the new version not being tested with 3+ soldiers much, or conversely 3+ spies. I don't see much value in mixing the soldiers & spies together, either sell out on doing one thing or the other if you are trying to win.
It looked to me after Arch's tests that 400 seems fair for the new changes, and I would have thought that vote would have passed no problem. No longer seeing 380 being realistic for new Zod. If more tests are needed, then these would be the two army tests I'd suggest running.
Game 1: Zod@400, Kryptonian Soldier x4 = 1200 points.
Game 2: Zod@400, Ursa, Kryptonian Infiltrator x2 [950] + Zoom = 1200 points.
Put them up against some JL armies. One with Superman, one without. First army is really simple, just 2 soldiers every time until you are down to 1 soldier, then Zod joins the fight and tries to clean up whatever is left in play.
Second army takes a bit more finesse. Initially Zoom gets 2OM's while Zod just gets one. Have Zoom run around keeping the opponent focused on him, while Zod orders Ursa to advance into the fight. Hopefully by the time Zoom goes down, one or more of the Infiltrators have dropped into the fight and Zod will be getting all the OM's with Ursa & and at least 1 Infiltrator already adj. to opponents figures. Use the unblockable option when it looks attractive, normal bonding when that looks like the better play. Zod once again plays clean up.
Isn't that what this vote is for?
Except it was posted in the Playtesting thread that he was pulled prior to this vote.
Don't worry. I'll put it back when this vote fails.
We could just withdraw the proposal now for efficiency's sake. That'd also let MrNobody get rolling on some tests.
Sure! (proposal withdrawn until further testing)
I mean, that doesn't mean we can't put him back up.I probably pulled him because I thought we were good and I try to be efficient with clearing space there, because there's so much in testing.
Not really what I was referring to. More just that it was specifically stated prior to it actually being decided. Kinda gives false appearances. Not really worried, I just notice inconsistencies and tend to frown at them
MrNobody
Just A Head
Any particular reason you want 2 JL armies, YK? I agree with you on testing against Superman in 1 game at least.
johnny139
Never CoN a CoN man
To be fair on my part - I voted Nay on moving forward with the current draft like a month ago and forgot about it after that point. I suppose I could have put forward a counter-proposal but I feel like I've been fairly vocal about my preference here - clarify the Spy wording, drop his points, further tweaks if that's insufficient.
I honestly think if our goal is create a refreshed Zod that's a more draftable generalist Kryptonian leader this version isn't going to cut it. This is going to be a Zod that works well with the Soldiers and Spies at the expense of his third bullet point. I think people will draft Zod over Luthor as often as they draft Professor X for his "take a turn with any Unique Hero" wording.
I honestly think if our goal is create a refreshed Zod that's a more draftable generalist Kryptonian leader this version isn't going to cut it. This is going to be a Zod that works well with the Soldiers and Spies at the expense of his third bullet point. I think people will draft Zod over Luthor as often as they draft Professor X for his "take a turn with any Unique Hero" wording.
No, not really. Just personally would rather see a Zod army take on similar power level foes as his thematic adversaries, so it doesn't really need to be JL armies but rather any army featuring 250-450 point units. I would be disappointed if someone sent a Zod army vs. street thugs and under 200 point crime lords or a bunch of ~100 point Rouges. The auto-wounding power needs to be used when facing someone who is hard to wound by attacking them directly. If the normal attack is more likely to result in a wound, the auto-wounding isn't going to be tested.
Lazy Orang
Hard as ice
A simple point drop wouldn't be enough to make me like the guy. I've played him before with the Soldier change, and liked it a lot, but if johnny wants to propose a different method of boosting that option which still keeps him viable as a general Kryptonian leader (odd thought, but maybe replace the single Kryptonian option and the double Soldier option with a turn with any two Kryptonians, one of whom must be a Soldier?), I'd be open to suggestions.
Thanks for running those Nobody! Two loses at 400 is a bit concerning there. I was concerned the spy power wouldn't stack up compared to the soldier one, even when trying to focus in on it. It doesn't look like the unblockables were very effective. It is difficult to maximize, getting two spies next to 1 figure or one spy next to 2 figures and then rolling a skull on both dice isn't going to happen often. Maybe that effect should be juiced up some to balance it as an option with the 2 soldiers and bring him closer to 400 on average.
FYI, this only allows 1 attack roll, not 2.