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The Book of Dr.Doom

I don't think Mindshackle needs answering by Hasbro. It seems clear-cut to me. Mindshackle delivers control of the card to a player, not to a figure.

The spirits... less clear-cut. Now that I think about it, let's suppose that I have Finn and you have Hulk. I have no order markers on Finn. Hulk smashes Finn and kills him. I don't have to take a turn with Finn (or any of my own figures, in fact) to place that spirit on another one of my cards. So from that, it could be argued that the placement of the warrior spirit happens independent of the turn structure-- it's not really part of Finn's turn or anybody else's turn-- and that taking a turn with the figure is not enough to gain control of the spirit. Now there's one to submit. It's just not apparent from the cards.
 
It seems pretty clear to me that whoever controls a card gets the benefit of the abilities. If you mindshackle someone with KMS while you control her with doom you get the figure. If you manage to off finn while you control him, you get the benefit of the warrior spirit.

Thats the most straight forward way to explain it imo. Anything else would require individual clarifications for every situation. This way you simply take the card you've mind control'd and use it just as if you had drafted it until your control is up.
 
The Warrior Spirit question is a good one and one which seems to be worth submitting. Having said that, I think the Warrior spirit goes to the controlling player until the end of Dr. Doom's turn when control goes back to the original owner. For all practical purposes I think this means that the original owner gets the Spirit. So to be clear:

A) I think anyone you mindshackle with a temporarily controlled card you get to keep, just as you keep any other benefit you accrue from the temporary use of a unit's powers.

B) I think that the Warrior Spirit of a card that is temporarily controlled goes to the temporary controller until the loss of that temporary control at which point it reverts to the original owner just as all the other permanent benefits of the card revert to the owner.

~Aldin, parsing finely
 
Swap in Doctor Doom for Red Skull and I agree with you completely, Aldin. But I think that the Viking Spirit one could go either way with Hasbro, as, like Aldin implies, it requires pretty fine parsing.
 
Aldin said:
goes to the temporary controller until the loss of that temporary control at which point it reverts to the original owner just as all the other permanent benefits of the card revert to the owner.

~Aldin, parsing finely
Click to expand...
But isn't Mindshackling a permanent benefit? I would say that the figure is connect to Kee-Mo-Shi's mind, not Doom, but that is pure flavor. I can see Hasbro saying that Doom gets control of the figure, though I can see Kee-Mo-Shi getting control of the firgure as well.
 
My thought is that Mindshackling happens during Doom's turn with KMS, whereas the placing of the Viking Spirits happens after the Viking Spirits are dead (and, according to my thinking, their turns and thus Doom's control have ended).

edit: and as far as flavor concerns, I see where you're coming from, but if it were truly about the link between the two minds, you could just kill KMS and your mind shackled figures would be returned to you. But that's not the case - once control is turned over with mind shackling, it's permanent, whether or not the figure that did the mind shackling remains alive (or, one could speculate, under your control).
 
hi1x4,

Look at it this way - say I have NGS and you have KMS. I mindshackle your Sgt. Drake then you mindshackle my NGS. Do you get Sgt. Drake? I see why that might be nice flavor, but I feel confident that per the rules I would keep Drake.

~Aldin, waiting with bated breath for the first time anyone actually uses Dr. Doom to control Finn and have him throw himself off a cliff or into the lava
 
Aldin said:
hi1x4,

Look at it this way - say I have NGS and you have KMS. I mindshackle your Sgt. Drake then you mindshackle my NGS. Do you get Sgt. Drake? I see why that might be nice flavor, but I feel confident that per the rules I would keep Drake.

~Aldin, waiting with bated breath for the first time anyone actually uses Dr. Doom to control Finn and have him throw himself off a cliff or into the lava
Click to expand...
Ah thanks Aldin that makes a lot more sense. And Batman too for pointing out the thing about dying and retaining control. Thanks guys.

Now for the Viking one have we reached a consensus?
 
I'm leaning toward the original owner keeps the spirits, but I could honestly see merit on either side.
 
IAmBatman said:
I'm leaning toward the original owner keeps the spirits, but I could honestly see merit on either side.
Click to expand...
I say the original controller gets the spirit as well, but I was convinced otherwise with Mindshackling, sowho knows.
 
IAmBatman said:
I'm leaning toward the original owner keeps the spirits, but I could honestly see merit on either side.
Click to expand...

Ditto

~Aldin, thinking of a little pink pokemon
 
hi1hi1hi1hi1 said:
Now for the Viking one have we reached a consensus?
Click to expand...

I still think it needs to be sent in. I know what I think the answer is, but I honestly don't know what Hasbro thinks it is, and that's what we need to know.
 
rdhight said:
hi1hi1hi1hi1 said:
Now for the Viking one have we reached a consensus?
Click to expand...

I still think it needs to be sent in. I know what I think the answer is, but I honestly don't know what Hasbro thinks it is, and that's what we need to know.
Click to expand...
Well if we are sending one in, we might as well send in a couple. Especially if we want Craig, or whoever does Marvel, to look at it himself. Anyone have anymore questions?
 
Might as well send in the Thanos + Mind Exchange and Frenzy question. My feeling is, they could have said per order marker, but they said per turn and they meant per turn. Still, better to be sure.
 
All those possibilities seem way off to me. Its all about who has possession of the card when one of these situations is invoked. That avoids all complications and need for clarification.


Seriously, warrior spirits moving around?! Why not just do what the cards actually say to do instead of reading a bunch of stuff into it using some kind of imaginary heroscape logic? Its a game, the fact that you're dealing with mind control and spirits is not nearly as relevant as what the rules and abilities clearly state.

If I control finn and he dies...I place his spirit on any unique army card. Just like it says. To do anything else is asking for a never ending FAQ and completely destroys the simplicity of this game.

*Edited to replace the word "relative" with "relevant" and again to add this message. I really need to start sleeping again.* :oops:
 
kalfalnal,

I think the "do what the card says" argument is the right one. What I wonder is twofold: Doom's card says "At the end of that turn, control of the chosen Hero returns to the player that controlled that Hero." The Warrior Spirit is placed when F or T is destroyed. So....

a) Does the turn end the instant they are destroyed returning control of the placement to the original owner?

b) Does the turn only end after all events relating to an Order Marker have transpired and therefore Doom places the spirit?

c) Same as "b" except that control of the Spirit (which is arguably still the "Hero") returns to the player after the turn ends.

I kinda tend to favor "c" technically, but note that in practice it would have the same effect as "a".

~Aldin, who believes "b" and "a" to be possible as well
 
Once the hero is dead the point of who controls him is moot as the card is essentially out of play. The last player who actually had control of the card should place the spirit and spirit does not equal hero, hence control is not relevant. Guess we'll be seeing this one in the faq eventually ;)
 
I honestly do not understand what you're saying, kalfalnal. After reading both of your posts, I have no clue which side of this you're on - whether you think the Spirits would be placed by Doom's onwer, or by the Viking's original owner.
 
IAmBatman said:
I honestly do not understand what you're saying, kalfalnal. After reading both of your posts, I have no clue which side of this you're on - whether you think the Spirits would be placed by Doom's onwer, or by the Viking's original owner.
Click to expand...
I think he's saying that Doom would place the figure. :screwy:
 
Thats what I'm saying.

I use Dr Doom to take control of Finn. I jump Finn into lava. Since I am currently his controller, I get to place the warrior spirit. Easy!
 
I gotta think Doom's team gets to use Finn. What happens if Ne-Gok-Sa mind shackles Finn? If NGS mind shackles Finn and Finn dies, NGS's team gets the spirit. I view mind exchange exactly the same as mind shackle, except it only lasts one turn.

The only argument I can see is Aldin's, about whether the turn ends when Finn dies or if it extends longer than that. It's worth putting it into the FAQ
 
For what it's worth, if I happened to be running Finn or Thorgrim on a map with lava vs. Dr. Doom and he just happened to pull of the takeover/hot lava death I'd be happy to give away the Warrior Spirit just for the novelty of it all 8)

~Aldin, glad we've at least defined the question
 
Yeah, you guys are starting to pull me back over to the other side of it. Like I said, I can really see both sides. With a death involved, it's not as clear cut to me as Mind Shackling with a Mind Exchanged figure.
 
Doctor Doom looks really fun to play with...at least he did before I read this thread. Now Im just confused.

I'd have to have the cards in front of me to really say for sure but Im leaning towards Doom's controller getting the benefits.

~Yub yub, Commander!
 
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