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The Book of Biollante
- Thread starter IAmBatman
- Start date
Arkham
C3G Con Champ 2021 and 2022!
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
C3G INITIAL PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Biollante
Army Test 1
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units:
Biollante (1000)
vs.
Fantastic Four (1000)
Army Test 2
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units:
Biollante (1000)
vs.
Luke Cage(190), Iron Fist(260), Moon Knight(150), Ronin(180), Cap(220) (1000)
Army Test 3
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units:
Biollante (1000)
vs.
Hawkwoman(260), Wonder Woman(310), Green Arrow(210), Black Canary(220) (1000)
THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY:
She's definitely a beast, and a fun single unit army, so that's great. I think she'll do well in multi-person matches as well, as that means more player turns. I think she could probably use a nerf with these 3 wins. The F4 could just be a big luck game for her, but they were decimated. The other 2 teams fared better, but she still was nasty with the Tendril wounds + lockdown combo, and had enough staying power to not expend her last marker, at which point she gets her harder hitting SA.
I noticed 4/5 games ran for initials were against other solo army units, where of course Tendrils is limited to 1 target, a target which also once they get in, is going to hit a lot harder than a typical unit does in a standard army. So no surprise she would fare worse in those matchups vs. an actual army, during which she's currently undefeated.
My suggestion would be to go with 1 fewer marker(as-is, she's rocking essentially a 24+ Life), or to switch the Tendrils to be a d20 roll with slightly lesser success rate odds(like 13+), or maybe both? With 1 fewer marker, 3/4 games against armies suddenly become a lot closer, so I would probably prefer that. And I'd stress with additional testing to keep seeing more games against armies, as that's going to be her strong suit as-is.
If you're worried at all about that making her too easily defeated against solo big bads, I'd make Tendrils target 2 spaces, instead of 2 figures, and then you'd be able to hit double spaced figures twice, or just make it so she can choose Huge figures twice etc.
C3G INITIAL PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM
NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Biollante
___________________________________________________________
Army Test 1
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units:
Biollante (1000)
vs.
Fantastic Four (1000)
Spoiler Alert!
___________________________________________________________
Army Test 2
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units:
Biollante (1000)
vs.
Luke Cage(190), Iron Fist(260), Moon Knight(150), Ronin(180), Cap(220) (1000)
Spoiler Alert!
___________________________________________________________
Army Test 3
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units:
Biollante (1000)
vs.
Hawkwoman(260), Wonder Woman(310), Green Arrow(210), Black Canary(220) (1000)
Spoiler Alert!
___________________________________________________________
THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY:
She's definitely a beast, and a fun single unit army, so that's great. I think she'll do well in multi-person matches as well, as that means more player turns. I think she could probably use a nerf with these 3 wins. The F4 could just be a big luck game for her, but they were decimated. The other 2 teams fared better, but she still was nasty with the Tendril wounds + lockdown combo, and had enough staying power to not expend her last marker, at which point she gets her harder hitting SA.
I noticed 4/5 games ran for initials were against other solo army units, where of course Tendrils is limited to 1 target, a target which also once they get in, is going to hit a lot harder than a typical unit does in a standard army. So no surprise she would fare worse in those matchups vs. an actual army, during which she's currently undefeated.
My suggestion would be to go with 1 fewer marker(as-is, she's rocking essentially a 24+ Life), or to switch the Tendrils to be a d20 roll with slightly lesser success rate odds(like 13+), or maybe both? With 1 fewer marker, 3/4 games against armies suddenly become a lot closer, so I would probably prefer that. And I'd stress with additional testing to keep seeing more games against armies, as that's going to be her strong suit as-is.
If you're worried at all about that making her too easily defeated against solo big bads, I'd make Tendrils target 2 spaces, instead of 2 figures, and then you'd be able to hit double spaced figures twice, or just make it so she can choose Huge figures twice etc.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
Fwiw, I think her essentially having 24 Life is fine, as she's almost always going to have height disadvantage and will have some problematic match ups. I think that in games where she doesn't have a ton of overflow wounds ignored by the markers, she's more reasonable. So I think a good take might be to reduce the markers by one, but up her life to 8 to keep that 24 Life but lessen the overflows.
Fwiw, I think her essentially having 24 Life is fine, as she's almost always going to have height disadvantage and will have some problematic match ups. I think that in games where she doesn't have a ton of overflow wounds ignored by the markers, she's more reasonable. So I think a good take might be to reduce the markers by one, but up her life to 8 to keep that 24 Life but lessen the overflows.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
I do wonder if we should cut out the movement denial part of the grasping tendrils. I'm surprised the Fan Four would fall like that without doing a single wound, though. I'd think they'd be activating three figures often enough that Biollante wouldn't be able to stop them all from swarming her.
I do wonder if we should cut out the movement denial part of the grasping tendrils. I'm surprised the Fan Four would fall like that without doing a single wound, though. I'd think they'd be activating three figures often enough that Biollante wouldn't be able to stop them all from swarming her.
Arkham
C3G Con Champ 2021 and 2022!
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
She could stop 2 of them fairly often, if not 1 of them. Fantastic only rolled for 1 figure for most of the match, but it was also over pretty quick. They lack range is the main issue, and IW isn't gonna be offering much attack wise.
I'm not sure upping life is necessary? Even if you take away 1 marker, with the results as-is, you're looking at 3 wins for her, and potentially 1 loss from your initial army game. But even then, you have to consider that would mean she would have had the crazy good SA sooner in your game, so may have still been a win, and in mine the win may have come a hair quicker?
But if you feel it's necessary, go with what you feel. Just don't think it's needed. If anything, I'd say just up the Defense to 6 to match stats if you want slightly more survivability to make up for the marker reduction.
If you take away the lockdown aspect, I think that significantly changes results, and would absolutely cut down her effectiveness. But that also means a lot of these tests become data that feels no longer applicable? I'm inclined to say keep it as-is and just remove a marker. She was fun, challenging, and brutal, all fitting for a 1 person army. I don't know if that'd stay true without the lockdown in her toolset.
She could stop 2 of them fairly often, if not 1 of them. Fantastic only rolled for 1 figure for most of the match, but it was also over pretty quick. They lack range is the main issue, and IW isn't gonna be offering much attack wise.
I'm not sure upping life is necessary? Even if you take away 1 marker, with the results as-is, you're looking at 3 wins for her, and potentially 1 loss from your initial army game. But even then, you have to consider that would mean she would have had the crazy good SA sooner in your game, so may have still been a win, and in mine the win may have come a hair quicker?
But if you feel it's necessary, go with what you feel. Just don't think it's needed. If anything, I'd say just up the Defense to 6 to match stats if you want slightly more survivability to make up for the marker reduction.
If you take away the lockdown aspect, I think that significantly changes results, and would absolutely cut down her effectiveness. But that also means a lot of these tests become data that feels no longer applicable? I'm inclined to say keep it as-is and just remove a marker. She was fun, challenging, and brutal, all fitting for a 1 person army. I don't know if that'd stay true without the lockdown in her toolset.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
Was the lockdown part of her too frustrating to play against? I could see that happening too. Even if I'm not playing a full-melee army, it might just be no fun to play her if she's constantly stopping my figures.
Was the lockdown part of her too frustrating to play against? I could see that happening too. Even if I'm not playing a full-melee army, it might just be no fun to play her if she's constantly stopping my figures.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
It does sound like just dropping a single marker is the simplest route, so I'll go with that for now.
I figure *most* of the time the dice won't be hot enough to fully deny people the ability to get to her.
It does sound like just dropping a single marker is the simplest route, so I'll go with that for now.
I figure *most* of the time the dice won't be hot enough to fully deny people the ability to get to her.
Arkham
C3G Con Champ 2021 and 2022!
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
It definitely was effective at disrupting the opponent's plans/turns about half the time. That's of course dependent on the army. Luke Cage has more flexibility in who he activates, so if she locks down one, he can activate a different one etc. But yeah, it's not exactly something you're going to love as the opponent, but lockdown never is(blob, Graviton, Jean etc.)
The thing is though, once you manage to engage her or get within whatever that figure's range is, it becomes a non-factor for that figure as they can still attack/use specials etc. So it feels like a resistance at first to get in, then once you're in you're in. If she could throw you back out, I'd say it's a different story. But as-is, I never felt like leaving an engagement with her was worth it, especially given her limited options map placement wise.
I think I dig it here if only because it fits the character and the 1000 point Event Hero big level threat feel. You feel like you're fighting a boss, and it helps make her feel unique in play compared to Surtur, Godzilla, King Kong etc.
It definitely was effective at disrupting the opponent's plans/turns about half the time. That's of course dependent on the army. Luke Cage has more flexibility in who he activates, so if she locks down one, he can activate a different one etc. But yeah, it's not exactly something you're going to love as the opponent, but lockdown never is(blob, Graviton, Jean etc.)
The thing is though, once you manage to engage her or get within whatever that figure's range is, it becomes a non-factor for that figure as they can still attack/use specials etc. So it feels like a resistance at first to get in, then once you're in you're in. If she could throw you back out, I'd say it's a different story. But as-is, I never felt like leaving an engagement with her was worth it, especially given her limited options map placement wise.
I think I dig it here if only because it fits the character and the 1000 point Event Hero big level threat feel. You feel like you're fighting a boss, and it helps make her feel unique in play compared to Surtur, Godzilla, King Kong etc.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
A little more complicated, but just to try to reduce the "impossible to even approach" effect, what if we did something like this?
GRASPING PLANT TENDRILS
At the start of each player’s turn, you may choose up to 2 figures within 12 spaces of Biollante. Roll one unblockable attack die against each chosen figure. If you roll a skull, the chosen figure receives a wound. If you roll a shield, the chosen figure may not move until the start of the next player’s turn.
A little more complicated, but just to try to reduce the "impossible to even approach" effect, what if we did something like this?
GRASPING PLANT TENDRILS
At the start of each player’s turn, you may choose up to 2 figures within 12 spaces of Biollante. Roll one unblockable attack die against each chosen figure. If you roll a skull, the chosen figure receives a wound. If you roll a shield, the chosen figure may not move until the start of the next player’s turn.
Arkham
C3G Con Champ 2021 and 2022!
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
I’m not sure that’s going to make the opponent feel any better. Rather than double suck it’s even higher odds of one or the other.
You can always cut down on the range of it, too, as an option. Like 9 spaces instead of 12 etc.
I’m not sure that’s going to make the opponent feel any better. Rather than double suck it’s even higher odds of one or the other.
You can always cut down on the range of it, too, as an option. Like 9 spaces instead of 12 etc.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
I have 12 spaces because I want to avoid auto loss situations for Biollante where she’s on a map where she can’t move at all and the enemy has a long ranged figure that can snipe at her without ever being touched.
My thoughts with that proposal is that it’ll do stuff more consistently, but the movement stopping in particular will hit less often so you will be able to reach her more reliably, since you can take the wound and keep moving. And once you are in attack range, the shields are mostly irrelevant.
I have 12 spaces because I want to avoid auto loss situations for Biollante where she’s on a map where she can’t move at all and the enemy has a long ranged figure that can snipe at her without ever being touched.
My thoughts with that proposal is that it’ll do stuff more consistently, but the movement stopping in particular will hit less often so you will be able to reach her more reliably, since you can take the wound and keep moving. And once you are in attack range, the shields are mostly irrelevant.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
What if we made it more tactical?
GRASPING PLANT TENDRILS
At the start of each player’s turn, you may choose up to 2 figures within 12 spaces of Biollante. Roll one unblockable attack die against each chosen figure. If you roll a skull, you may choose to either inflict a wound on the chosen figure or for the chosen figure to be unable to move until the start of the next player’s turn.
Basically she reaches out to grab you and can either hold you or hurt you. Since most of what you're doing as Biollante's player is just rolling a die or two each turn, allowing some more player choice might be useful. And this way if you roll skull after skull you have to choose to either hold people OR wound them. You can't do both.
What if we made it more tactical?
GRASPING PLANT TENDRILS
At the start of each player’s turn, you may choose up to 2 figures within 12 spaces of Biollante. Roll one unblockable attack die against each chosen figure. If you roll a skull, you may choose to either inflict a wound on the chosen figure or for the chosen figure to be unable to move until the start of the next player’s turn.
Basically she reaches out to grab you and can either hold you or hurt you. Since most of what you're doing as Biollante's player is just rolling a die or two each turn, allowing some more player choice might be useful. And this way if you roll skull after skull you have to choose to either hold people OR wound them. You can't do both.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
Sure. I mostly want to avoid a situation where someone is just super hot on their dice and she becomes completely impossible to deal with.
With the tactical choice version I like the idea of being able to choose from the Biollante player side, but I guess if your dice are hot you can also put the game in stalemate forever, which is kinda sucky.
Sure. I mostly want to avoid a situation where someone is just super hot on their dice and she becomes completely impossible to deal with.
With the tactical choice version I like the idea of being able to choose from the Biollante player side, but I guess if your dice are hot you can also put the game in stalemate forever, which is kinda sucky.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
Toying around with a game against the Fan Four, I think the skull being either or feels like you'd have way too much control in possibly a bad way.
I played the skulls and shields version through a full game and shields rarely popped and the Fan Four had better dice overall and won pretty handily, but were down to one life Invisible Woman, one life Human Torch, and full life Mister Fantastic. Torch's decision to go Supernova felt like it had more weight for sure, though.
I'm leaning towards that version, and if she's feeling too soft, I might boost life a tad.
Toying around with a game against the Fan Four, I think the skull being either or feels like you'd have way too much control in possibly a bad way.
I played the skulls and shields version through a full game and shields rarely popped and the Fan Four had better dice overall and won pretty handily, but were down to one life Invisible Woman, one life Human Torch, and full life Mister Fantastic. Torch's decision to go Supernova felt like it had more weight for sure, though.
I'm leaning towards that version, and if she's feeling too soft, I might boost life a tad.
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
From Toy's tandem testing with Skinderella (assuming her write ups are pending). Some pretty big changes suggested, so let me know what you think, please!
Thanks!
From Toy's tandem testing with Skinderella (assuming her write ups are pending). Some pretty big changes suggested, so let me know what you think, please!
Thanks!
toyhandle said:
MrNobody
Just A Head
Re: The Book of Biollante - Blooming (Public Playtest)
Hard to assess too hard, since we're missing the actual army results. It looks like Toy was still letting Wiccan get carried when he couldn't move, which is incorrect I think.
I do see some sense in not letting a 1,000 point figure get their marker warped away by Wiccan. If we made a change here, we'd probably also want to make one on Ghidorah?
Hard to assess too hard, since we're missing the actual army results. It looks like Toy was still letting Wiccan get carried when he couldn't move, which is incorrect I think.
I do see some sense in not letting a 1,000 point figure get their marker warped away by Wiccan. If we made a change here, we'd probably also want to make one on Ghidorah?