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Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

NO on the Psonic Marauder for all stated reasons.

Please remember we are not going to look up figure information, so without it it will always be an automatic NO. Figure information and availability is an important part of this project.

Just as a reminder, these are the general features that we will be judging on, so keep them in mind for your nominations:
  • Balance-Are the points correct?
  • Playability-Are the powers clear and understandable? Are its master stats appropriate? If it is Large or Huge, what type of base does it use? Is it visually distinct from pre-existing units?
  • Creativity-Does it add something new to the game?
  • Theme-Does it fit in the HS universe?
  • Accessibility-Is the sculpt, or sculpts, available, at a reasonable price, and with limited modification? To help with this, it is encouraged that a link to the mini is included with the nomination (check out Lamaclown's list of mini sites for help with that)
 
Ok thanks for the clarifications on submissions, I wasn't sure if the topics on the first post were required in submission or once it was chosen for review. Also, robbdaman, I can't seem to find any typos in the card; could you please specify?

I will try and clarify the mind control power and hopefully resubmit with the proper criteria in the near future. So yes, I choose to remove Psionic Marauder from the process for now.

Thanks for the help
 
So I don't know if it got lost in the shuffle but the OP still shows the Tentacle's of the Kraken are still pending acceptance to review, and it doesn't show the Psionic Marauder at all... (even though it has recieved three no votes anyways.)
 
I too would like to express my sadness over Dad_Scaper stepping down. His discerning eye has been a great benefit to the SoV project, and his direct and sometimes blunt evaluations served a valuable role. D_S, you will be missed.

Which means it's time to step up and start doing my job. I have been doing quite a bit of playtesting and am ready to place some votes, I just need to sit down and do the write-ups.


Rat Swarms by Killometer

How well do swams of pint-sized rats do in Heroscape?

Balance

It is somewhat difficult to theoryscape exact pricing on this unit, as common squads with similar attack/defense stats either have range or bonding. The Rat Swarms have a combination of good speed due to Scramble and Disengage and a special attack that each figure of the unit can use independently, but rather weak stats otherwise. Fifty points is at least in the ballpark. For more details on this point see the Playability section.

Theme

Treating swarms of tiny figures as a single combat unit is fairly common in fantasy games. Making them mobile is a perfect fit, as is the (to your opponent) mostly annoying but sometimes troublesome Ravenous Swarm Special Attack. Initially I was put off by the figure choice because 1) I do not like common squads where all the member use the same scuplt and 2) it is so darn tiny. But when I got the figures they were not as much of a problem as I expected. They are easy enough to see on the battlefield and, due to the nature of the figure, the sculpts would end up looking pretty much the same even if they were different. Calling them Height 2 is a stretch, but it is necessary for gameplay.

Creativity

Using a swarm as a single creature is fairly common in other fantasy games but has yet to appear in Heroscape. The powers are creatively designed to give the feel of a unit that is quick and annoying and not overpowering.

Accessibility

The painted version of the miniature is fairly hard to come by; only 13 right now on abprices. However this miniature comes with the Castle Ravenloft game, and Auggie's is selling the minis individually. With 110 in stock right now and Castle Ravenloft still in print I am ok with the availability.

Playability

The Rat Swarms are quite speedy. Scramble 2 ends up feeling somewhat like Flying, allowing them to zip around ignoring small terrain changes. I found this especially effective in the River of Blood scenario where regular Flying is restricted. Disengage is also very helpful in being able to hunt down the figures you want to kill instead of getting locked down by screening units.

While they do get into the action quickly, unfortunately they do not do much when they get there. Each unit being able to do a special attack is certainly valuable, however their special attack isn't potent. Against a single opponent 1 attack of 3 is almost always better than 3 attacks of 1, except against a handful of special units. It's the same reason Q9 usually attacks with 3 dice each attack; concentrating your dice into a single attack increases the odds of punching through the opponent's defense. If Rat Swarms could attack multiple figures with Ravenous Swarm it might be different, but as-is it's generally weaker than single special attack of 3. Defensively two defense dice on a melee unit doesn't stop much (as Macdirk players can attest to), but their tiny size does help them hide behind obstacles better than most.

After a while of playing against the Rat Swarms I started mostly ignoring them. If they tied up my figures I would attack (and usually kill) them, otherwise I would just wait for them to come to me while I concentrated on killing units that would give me more trouble.

As a Deathreaver counterdraft I found the Rat Swarms disappointing. Even though Ravenous Swarm prevented the Deathreavers from using Scatter, it usually did not have enough punch to kill them. The Swarms fared better against Goblin Cutters, but even then the Cutters put up quite a fight due to larger numbers and four attacks per turn. As a screening unit they did not do much due to their lack of defense, and their defense hurt their usage as glyph-holders. When used as assassins that zip through enemy lines and hunt down range units or other key figures, they lacked the offense to get the kills and were quickly killed themselves in the ensuing counterattack.

Bottom line, I found the Rat Swarms to be ineffective. This isn't something I feel that simply lowering the price would fix; even if they were cheaper they would still be an ineffective use of an order marker, though they may have some value as cheap filler. I really think that what the unit needs is a fourth squad member, to give them more attacks per order marker and more bodies on the field.

Summary

The Rat Swarms have a distintive feel that matches the theme well. They are quick and annoying, zipping into enemy territory and nipping at heals. I really wanted to like them, but I continually found them disappointing. They have neither the offense to get kills or the defense to survive on the field; in most of the games I played they were just a road bump for the opponent to get over. I certainly do not require tournament-worthiness, but as they are they have little effect in any game they are in. I waffled back and forth on how I wanted to vote, but in the end I leaned against.

I vote :down: for the Rat Swarms.
 
Rat Swarms by Killometer has received two NO votes to induct (Scytale, Super Bogue), and are removed from the process.

So I don't know if it got lost in the shuffle but the OP still shows the Tentacle's of the Kraken are still pending acceptance to review, and it doesn't show the Psionic Marauder at all... (even though it has recieved three no votes anyways.)
Don't know about anyone else, but I'm still pondering the Tentacles, and Fedex Worker withdrew the Psionic Marauder.
 
Rat Swarms by Killometer has received two NO votes to induct (Scytale, Super Bogue), and are removed from the process.
*Sigh* I liked the rat swarms, at least in concept. We need swarms of annoying little creatures running across the battlefiedl. Just imagine this, I have Q9, the deathreavers, Raelin, and maybe the 4th Mass.* My opponent has nothing but... a mess of rats.

How wickedly cool it would be if he kicked my tush.

I hope more ideas like this get submitted.

*I'm not saying I would really field this army, it's just random fantasizing.
 
Horned Skull Champion by qt.bangerang

The Horned Skull Champion provides an interesting twist on the interaction between the Goblin Cutters and the Horned Skull Brutes. Instead of Barge Into Battle the Champion rouses the little goblins to rush into battle.

I enjoyed playing this unit. Mixing Horned Skull Champions with Horned Skull Brutes did not work as well as I expected; they tended to get in the way of Barge Into Battle and didn't have the offensive output to compete with the Brutes for order markers. However I did find them interesting as 75pt heroes, of a sort, keeping a troop of Cutters alongside them as extra hitpoints. In that role they are obviously weak to explosion attacks but somewhat effective for the price, and different results can be gained by adjusting the ratio of Champions to Cutters.

However, I ran into some situations that made Rabble Rouser unclear. If the Horned Skull Champion dies during its turn (to, say, a leaving engagement attack or Counter Strike), does it still get to use Rabble Rouser? Normally a figure's powers are negated when it dies, but since the Champion is Common there may be other Champions still in play leaving the card active. This led to a list of scenarios with different results depending on the interpretation of the power, whether the Champion died during movement or during its attack phase, and whether or not there was another Champion still in play.

After some consideration I've decided the power is just too unclear. Something as simple and common as a leaving engagement attack can cause confusion (it did for me at least), and even if it is meant to work like I think it does I'm not keen on the power acting differently whether or not there are other Horned Skull Champions still alive.

I vote :down: for the Horned Skull Champion, though I would like to see the power revised and the card resubmitted.
 
I'd like to nominate a custom of mine called Ocelot:
OCELOT-1.jpg

The figure is:
Mech Warrior - Falcons Prey - Ocelot #086

And I really enjoy this custom after all the time it's been since I designed it. I think it could do well in SoV. That's not to say I am against criticisms and possible improvements to the design. His background is that he is a failed spinoff of the Deathwalkers that went haywire and was completely uncontrollable. Hence since it is completely chaotic evil, Valkrill would love this guy in his ranks.

PS: I am allowed to nominate my own design right?
 
Yes, you can nominate your own unit. Looks fun!

Can you say a bit more about sculpt availability?

(While there are a lot of great customs out there, SoV is different from many in that we want people to be able to find the mini and play the actual card/sculpt.)
 
I have to vote NO on Ocelot .

After a preliminary inquiry into the availability, I found only 5 after checking six different online stores. That is way too low for a SoV nomination.
 
Clyemne by DeathDoom

Clyemne is an attempt to further bolster the ranks of Ullar's elves by adding in a captain for the Warriors of Ashra. I like the concept, but I have a problem with how one of the powers is designed.

Captain's Assault reads: "After taking a turn with the Warriors of Ashra, you may take a turn with Clyemne, as long as she ends her movement adjacent to an opponent's figure." The problem with this power is that is it dependent on something occurring in the future, after the power is triggered. There are a few scenarios I can think of where ending Clyemne's movement next to an opponent's figure is possible but not guaranteed.

The most obvious possibility is Clyemne being killed by leaving engagement attacks on her way to a key enemy figure. If that happens, she fails to meet the requirement of ending her turn adjacent to an enemy. So is her entire turn then negated and reset? A perhaps more interesting example could occur due to her Passing Slash ability. Clyemne could disengage from a figure daring the leaving engagement attack and Passing Slash could kill that figure. If that is the only enemy unit nearby, she would be forced to end her movement not adjacent to an opponent's figure. Again, what does that mean? She should not have been able to use Captain's Assault at all, so is the turn negated?

I like the unit concept, the figure chosen is appropriate, and she seems fun to play. But I feel the requirement on Captain's Assault leaves unanswered edge cases, as any requirement on something happening in the future likely does.

I vote :down: for Clyemne.
 
Don't the Kozuke Samurai do the exact same thing?

They "must be able to move adjacent to an opponents figure in order to use charging assault"
 
I think one could argue that the Kozuke establish a certain precedent for this. (Though in their case, it's a bit ambiguous, since much depends on how one interprets "must be able": does it require that one be able to guarantee the result, or only require that one be able to pursue that result?)

Heh, William099 was faster. :lol:
 
"must be able to" is different than the "must" implied in Clyemne's Captain's Assault wording.

~Z
 
I think one could argue that the Kozuke establish a certain precedent for this. (Though in their case, it's a bit ambiguous, since much depends on how one interprets "must be able": does it require that one be able to guarantee the result, or only require that one be able to pursue that result?)

Heh, William099 was faster. :lol:

Ninja'd!! Ironically about a Samurai reference... I was browsing the Kozuke Samurai thread and it sounded like they absolutley may not use their power if they do not end adjacent to an opponents figure.
 
"must be able to" is different than the "must" implied in Clyemne's Captain's Assault wording.

~Z
Not sure, cmgames. Depends on how one interprets the Kozuke's power.

Say a Kozuke wants to use Charging Assault to move adjacent to an enemy's figure who is 9 spaces away, and the only way to get to that figure is to cross a Molten Lava hex 7 spaces away. Can he use Charging Assault? Depends on whether you interpret "must be able" to mean that he must be able to guarantee the result of ending the movement adjacent to the enemy (which in this case clearly he cannot do, since he has a 19/20 chance of dying first), or whether he need only possess the potential for it (regardless of whether fate would actually allow it to be realized or not if put to the test).
 
Based on the rulings in the Kozuke's book the Kozkue figure has to end its move standing next to an opponent's figure otherwise it does not get to add three. So in the lava example no the Kozuke would not get to use charging assault.

In the book someone asked if they could use the Charging Assault to add three if they were going to pass by a figure within the 9 spaces so basically the potential to end adjacent was there but if they chose not to could they still get the plus three and everyone there seemed to agree that no the Kozuke could not use the plus three unless it realized the potential to end on the space. We should probably move this out of the SOV thread now.
 
The Kozuke does establish a precedent, though I really hate that power because I feel it's unclear. It does use the wording "must be able to", which is different than "must" (though apparently means "must" to some extent...), which opens the door for failing attempts like getting killed by a leaving engagement attack.

The biggest difference is that Charging Assault is a bonus during the move phase which is the same time the power takes affect. It's still a future thing, where the +3 happens before the figure actually moves, but at least it's in the same phase. Captain's Assault gives Clyemne a turn, and all the stuff a turn entails (like triggering Thanos's Rejected by Death, for example), with a restriction that occurs during her movement phase. That's a bigger deal to me than the +3 move Charging Assault gives.
 
I would like to re-submit my custom here for nomination (for the third and final time :)), with the changes suggested:

Threforian Raptor
RaptorPackFilled-5.png

Figure used: Reaper Legends; Fastclaw​

Bio: From the steamy world of Grut comes yet another force for good. Long has the dinosaur race been vilified and associated with orcs on Valhalla, but after the summoning of the Wolfen, it has become clear to Aquilla that they could be just as handy as the spiders from her own beloved jungle. Now brought to this new world, these raptors adapt quickly and begin to pose a grave threat for any orc or marro who step into Ticalla!

Spoiler Alert!


Thanks for looking at it yet again! - Fi
 
I have to vote NO on Ocelot .

After a preliminary inquiry into the availability, I found only 5 after checking six different online stores. That is way too low for a SoV nomination.

I agree that the figure is allittle hard to find but it can be found in a few different colors with the same figure. So availability shouldn't be to terrible. But I understand if that's an issue. In which case I'm possibly willing to pick an easier to find miniature.
 
Is my browser failing to update something? It looks exactly the same as last time.
 
I agree that the figure is allittle hard to find but it can be found in a few different colors with the same figure. So availability shouldn't be to terrible. But I understand if that's an issue. In which case I'm possibly willing to pick an easier to find miniature.

With all the color combinations I've found a dozen or so on a few sites, but that's still not enough. Regardless, please list figure availability along with unit submissions. It is up to the submitter to prove the figure has high enough availability to be considered, not up to the judges to see if we can find enough.

Given the availability I've seen, I'm going to vote NO as well. If someone can prove better availability, I am willing to reconsider.
 
35pts still feels high for a single-attacking 3/3 common melee hero, but it's at least close.

YES to review Threforian Raptor
 
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