Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[William099]

Huh that's interesting my friends and I have always played in a way that applies all bonuses before subtracting any negatives. I always thought that was the way it had to be done.... Guess I learn something every day...

The way I see it if you look at it thematically the arrow grut had the bonuses already because he was feeling all inspired and such and then Gor'Vath walks up and the stinking cloud rolls in shaking the grut's resolve and thus lowering its abilities.... but yeah maybe that's more of a house rule than anything.

 

[caps]

For example, imagine Gor'Vath adjacent to an Arrow Grut that has height and is adjacent to two Swog Riders. If I were playing the Arrow Grut I could argue that you impose Gor'Vath's penalty first, leaving my attack at 1, to which I would then apply my height and Swog bonuses, giving the Grut a final attack of 4. Contrariwise, were I playing Gor'Vath, I could argue that you apply all bonuses first, raising the Grut's attack to 4, then Gor'Vath's penalty is applied, leaving the Grut with an attack of 2.

I'm really skeptical about the former interpretation having any weight or precedent. The way I look at it, its 1 + 3 - 2 = 1, not 1 - 2 = 1, then 1 + 3 = 4. You can't apply bonuses for a single attack at separate times--you have to do it all at once.

Don't you?

 

[Killometer]

For example, imagine Gor'Vath adjacent to an Arrow Grut that has height and is adjacent to two Swog Riders. If I were playing the Arrow Grut I could argue that you impose Gor'Vath's penalty first, leaving my attack at 1, to which I would then apply my height and Swog bonuses, giving the Grut a final attack of 4. Contrariwise, were I playing Gor'Vath, I could argue that you apply all bonuses first, raising the Grut's attack to 4, then Gor'Vath's penalty is applied, leaving the Grut with an attack of 2.

I'm really skeptical about the former interpretation having any weight or precedent. The way I look at it, its 1 + 3 - 2 = 1, not 1 - 2 = 1, then 1 + 3 = 4. You can't apply bonuses for a single attack at separate times--you have to do it all at once.

Don't you?

With subtraction you can't apply them all at once-order of operations counts, which is why imposing a minimum the way it does creates a problem.

And there is no precendent specifically for this situation. There is a "no rolling fewer than 0 dice" rule, but it's a general rule, and is therefore applied post-effects, allowing modification into the negative for dice rolls (Venocs attacked by Zelrig, or example).

Intuitively, I agree with you guys, but mathematically and legally, the way Gor'Vath's written 1-2=1 is valid.

 

[MegaSilver]

If that stipulation was dropped, the figure would work IMO...

 

[Killometer]

That's probably true, but then many figures would have an attack of 0 when engaged to Gor'Vath, which would probably require a reassessment of his price.

I understand why a minimum was included, unfortunately it gums up the works quite a bit.

 

[caps]

Hm, what if it was reworded to something like: "Figures rolling attack or defense dice while adjacent to Gor'Vath may not roll less than 1 die because of Fetid." That would clarify that the minimum is applied immediately before the roll, after all other effects have been applied. i.e. the figure's dice can be reduced below one, but after all effects are applied, it goes up to a minimum of one, as opposed to "Fetid may not lower attack or defense dice of any figure below 1," which implies that the number of dice cannot go below one at any point in time.

Or even:
"After applying any other attack or defense dice bonuses, Unique figures adjacent to Gor'Vath roll 1 less dice for all attack and defense rolls, while common figures roll 2 less dice for all attack and defense rolls. Figures rolling attack or defense dice while adjacent to Gor'Vath may not roll less than 1 die because of Fetid."
to make it as explicit as possible.

I know this isn't the place for workshoping, I just want to know if there's any way this could be worded that would be acceptable to you.

I'm curious if the other judges are of the same mind as Killometer.

 

[cmgames]

Futhermore, I know it is nitpicky, but it should be "all normal attack rolls". As worded, it would seem to apply to special attacks too. Or perhaps refer to the attack and defense numbers instead of the dice.

~Z

 

[Scytale]

I agree with Killometer on this point.

While the suggested changes do fix the issue (in particular the second suggestion), I really do not like the idea of introducing a minimum value that is different that the standard minimum (zero). Regardless of how it is done, it creates the necessity of an ordering for +/- dice powers, even if that ordering is specific to one unit. That would set a precedent for more powers to do the same, any other powers that also try to specify "after applying any other bonuses" would conflict poorly with Fetid.

 

[qt.bangerang]

Rat Swarm by Kilometer

Balance
At first I thought these where way over priced with how weak they are but after playing them I think they pretty close…I still think they would be good around 40 points. The ability to have 9 special attacks is where they make up their points, even if it is only 9 attacks of 1, it only takes one wiff to take down Deathwalker, also no scattering if they attack Reavers.

Theme
This custom screams dungeon crawl and completely makes you think that you are playing a bunch of rats that are quickly scurrying across the board…which fits the chosen figure perfectly. Adding to the theme is their stats and special abilities. Scramble 2 makes them pretty fast when moving across a board with small elevations. And, Ravenous Swarm Special Attack gives the feeling of being bitten be bunch of rats around your feet.

Accessibility
Being a Castle Ravenloft piece Auggies has a lot of these in stock so it will be cheap and an easy paint job to get the desired amount of figures.

Playability
These are not the easiest unit to play as they don’t have any bonding or any synergy other then Devourer Attack Enhancement from the Dumutef Gaurds. Because of this I found myself trying to include them in builds of Dumutef Gaurds and Death Knights. But, doing so meant that they saw little action until they were the last unit remaining. I also found it hard to take them as filler in other builds, as there are many other and better options. However, they are great filler in a dungeon crawl setting.
They also have an inherent weakness due to their Height…they can’t climb anything of a height of 3 which includes battlements. But, they also have a great strength due to the figures actual height…it is very easy to hide them from enemy ranged units, which pick them off very easily.

While playing them I found that due to their weak stats and lack of usefully synergy that they are designed to be a mid game unit. But, finding the OM’s to use them is tricky, as to not loose what is already out on the frontlines.

Summary
Again the Rat Swarms are not the easiest figures to play. They are not a first wave or assassin figure because of their low attack and defense. They are also too weak to be a clean-up character for the same reason. That leaves them right in the middle. They have great theme which is really important to me and they are great in a dungeon crawl setting but, I don’t see them ever being used much in tournaments.

They open up a new category for future customs to build upon…like a “rat king” or other larger rat heroes or even more rat squads. Which is something that we need as the age of customs continues. All of which I would love to see.

That’s a hint to all of you custom creators wanting to submit units to the SoV.

I vote YES to induct the Rat Swam into the SoV.

 

[cornhusker36]

I would like to nominate another unit created by one of the judges.

qt.bangerang's Tentacles of the Kraken

I know that only Auggie carries these but he has 636 in stock which means that is 159 squads. and each person only needs 1 squad as they are unique.

 

[Tiranx]

Im real excited to see the Tentacles fo the Kraken submitted. I have played several games with them and have really enjoyed them. Early game drops of these guys make it really tempting to put them at the edge of the water and try and grab things off, however it is really important to remember that they actually have a range of three.

It is also relly fun to bring tentacles back from death and very thematic. I think this figure would make a great addittion to Heroscape and am excited to see what others think of it.

 

[qt.bangerang]

Thanks for the submission! I am glad you guys like them.

Here is a link to the design discussion thread.

 

[1Mmirg]

I would like to nominate another unit created by one of the judges.

qt.bangerang's Tentacles of the Kraken

I know that only Auggie carries these but he has 636 in stock which means that is 159 squads. and each person only needs 1 squad as they are unique.

I love these guys, very fun idea, cool to support Auggie and all he does for Scape.

However, I have reservations about the amount of text on these cards (wow!), the ability to bring back tentacles without limit (I assume I read that right--previously destroyed tentacles can be replaced, with the right roll, even after all are destroyed), and the use of (as I understand it) 4 identical sculpts.

None of these are absolute dealbreakers, but all of them give me pause.

I'll think these over more and vote soon.

 

[awesomeunleashed]

I would like to nominate another unit created by one of the judges.

qt.bangerang's Tentacles of the Kraken

I know that only Auggie carries these but he has 636 in stock which means that is 159 squads. and each person only needs 1 squad as they are unique.

I love these guys, very fun idea, cool to support Auggie and all he does for Scape.

However, I have reservations about the amount of text on these cards (wow!), the ability to bring back tentacles without limit (I assume I read that right--previously destroyed tentacles can be replaced, with the right roll, even after all are destroyed), and the use of (as I understand it) 4 identical sculpts.

None of these are absolute dealbreakers, but all of them give me pause.

I'll think these over more and vote soon.

I far prefer the Cthulhu Tentacle to the Kraken Tentacles. It also adresses your concerns about the Krakens, 1Mmirg, though I'm sure you would have other concerns. If these fail, I'll probably nominate the Cthulhu.

 

[Super Bogue]

Rat Swarm by Killometer

·Balance: The only other common squad with 5 Move, 1 Range and 2 Attack and Defense is the MacDirk Warriors. However, they are not a good comparison for several reasons. They are a four man squad with bonding and a special power that can give them a potential attack of 7. A better comparison of the Rat Swarm would be the Fyorlag Spiders. The Rat Swarm’s movement with Scramble 2 is usually equivalent to 6 or 7. The Spiders are 40 points and have a bonding power whereas the Rats have a special attack. I generally value a special attack for a squad more than a bonding power. 50 points is a balanced cost for this card considering stat values and special powers. Pass
·Playability: The powers are clear and understandable. The master stats make scratch my head a bit. The hardest one for me to reconcile was the defense of 2, but I suppose that a bunch of attacks could be as evasive as a orc warrior. The figure is distinct from other figures already in the Heroscape canon. Actually when I first got the figure in the mail I thought it was some kind of marker for another figure. Killometer has address why he went with Height of 2 on this card and I agree that his argument makes sense, but the figure is about as thick as a water tile. Pass
·Creativity: The card does add something new to the Heroscape canon. The Ravenous Swarm Special Attack is a great harassing attack to use against low defense figures. Scamble 2 is another nice power and very thematic. Pass
·Theme: The theme of the card fits the subject. However, where I struggle with passing this card on its theme is with this question: Does a squad ravenous rats fit within the Heroscape universe? At best I say maybe. Certainly Valkrill is the right general for the card and I do like fleshing his roster out with more common squads. But when I consider if Heroscape had not been cancelled would the design team introduce a card like this one? I definitely believe that they would have eventually brought out something like the other cards that SoV has passed, but I can’t convince myself that this one would have. Fail
·Accessibility: Accessibility with this card is a bit more complex than normal. If we were working with just the paint figure from the Savage Encounters set, then the card would fail this check. However, there is an unpainted version of the figure from Castle Ravenloft. The accessibility for the unpainted figure is good. Pass
Overall, the Rat Swarm does play well, and its theme fits the subject. However, I am unimpressed by the figure chosen for the card, and the card does not fit the Heroscape universe. All things consider, I vote NO to inducting the Rat Swarm into the Soldiers of Valhalla.

 

[qt.bangerang]

I love these guys, very fun idea, cool to support Auggie and all he does for Scape.

However, I have reservations about the amount of text on these cards (wow!), the ability to bring back tentacles without limit (I assume I read that right--previously destroyed tentacles can be replaced, with the right roll, even after all are destroyed), and the use of (as I understand it) 4 identical sculpts.

None of these are absolute dealbreakers, but all of them give me pause.

I'll think these over more and vote soon.

Yes it uses only one sculpt...but I wanted them to be a squad so I had to.

Also, yes you can continue to bring back tentacles even after they are all destroyed...think of Pirates of the Caribbean 2 when the Kraken attacks the black pearl and they think they killed it (all of it's tentacles) and then it comes back and eats Jack and sinks the black pearl...that is what I was going for.

Also, remember they are bound to water tiles so it is not hard to avoid them...depending on the map.

 

[Tiranx]

I would like to nominate another unit created by one of the judges.

qt.bangerang's Tentacles of the Kraken


I know that only Auggie carries these but he has 636 in stock which means that is 159 squads. and each person only needs 1 squad as they are unique.

I love these guys, very fun idea, cool to support Auggie and all he does for Scape.

However, I have reservations about the amount of text on these cards (wow!), the ability to bring back tentacles without limit (I assume I read that right--previously destroyed tentacles can be replaced, with the right roll, even after all are destroyed), and the use of (as I understand it) 4 identical sculpts.

None of these are absolute dealbreakers, but all of them give me pause.

I'll think these over more and vote soon.

I don't think the ability to bring back tentacles is as big a deal as you think. The Marro Warrios do a very similar regeneration and also benefit from being in the water.

Zombies, Elementals via Kurrock, and Marro via the Hive all have ways of bringing previously destoryed figures back into the game. preventing death is anothe way that destroyed figures stay in the game (e.g. Sacred Band, and elves with Alcolarh)

I am not a fan of same figure squads, however, the Tentacles of the Kraken represent appendages of the same figure. I would expect them to look the same. The Rat Swarms figure also really pulls off a same sculpt squad, just because of the swarm mentality, dozens of the same creature in the same place at the same time.

My one problem with the card is the amount of text though. It is not a figure that I would just give a first time player because they would be completely overwhelmed by the text.

On the other hand Tor-Kul-Na has a massive amount of text and that is only for one ability. There is a precedence for a lot of text and I definately think that there is a point to all the text.

@Bangerange-- I never realized that you could bring TotK back after all four had been destroyed. That is interesting. So in a sense you would want to kill them last so that they could't be revived. It would be fun to play an army of
Thanos, TotK, and Rats.

 

[1Mmirg]

I encourage all other judges to make their own vote--I know they will anyway--but for me I vote NO to review the Tentacles. I'm sorry, the amount of text and the same figure for a 4-man squad doesn't feel right to me.

Great idea. I still hope to try these out anyway, but I don't see this as being a unit that the original designers would have released and that is the main hurdle I expect from all SoV units.

(Yes, I believe, without hesitation, that if they had done it, each tentacle would have looked similar, but have been distinctive, and I believe they would have reworked it until it had less words, or scrapped it.)

 

[Scytale]

to review Tentacles of the Kraken.

I have the same reservations as the other judges: same-figure squad and lots of text. I'm giving the same-figure bit more leeway that I normally give; they really need to look almost the same by their nature other than poses. Heck, some hot water treatment might allow me to pose them myself. As for the amount of text, each power is distinct and very important to how the figure plays (except Release the Kraken is really two abilities, and I don't think the "starts off the battlefield" part is really necessary). The unit would be lacking if any of them were missing. Though I do have reservations about a unit that can never completely be killed off.

I don't see the unit as a general-use unit, but terrain-specific units have been a part of Heroscape for a long time. Not to this extreme, but there is room in Heroscape for scenario-use units. I love the idea of adding these into dungeon crawl scenarios.

 

[ZBeeblebrox]

I do not mind the words on the card, we have official cards with a lot of words too...and in this day and age of fan-scape...I'm pretty sure we will not find four different "tentacle" sculpts...so I vote YES to reveiw Tentacles of the Kraken

 

[Dad_Scaper]

What happens to the Tentacles when they meet this guy?

 

[MegaSilver]

I would imagine that they are frozen in place.

What would happen if Jotun throws them?

Again, wouldn't they be stuck?

 

[quozl]

No, a Greater Ice Elemental wouldn't affect them at all except that it could make there be less water spaces to move to.

Jotun could throw them fine as long as he throws them into water.

Read the card, guys.

 

[William099]

No, a Greater Ice Elemental wouldn't affect them at all except that it could make there be less water spaces to move to.

Jotun could throw them fine as long as he throws them into water.

Read the card, guys.

But wouldn't the Kraken tentacle next to the GIE no longer be allowed to stand there since they have to be on water?

 

[mac122]

But reading this card, if a GIE moves onto a water space adjacent to a Kraken Tentacle, that would mean the Tentacle is no longer on a water space but now occupies a normal ice space. Nobody moved it there so it doesn't violate the Water Bound Movement, but it seems to run counter to the spirit of the design.