Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Shadowking]

These reworks are looking pretty solid. I share superfrog's balance concerns, but Jan is competing with a number of good Human Champions. My concern would be adding Jan as a secondary Champion, leaving him behind most of the time just to get the range-less boost. That will be addressed in playtesting.

to review Jan Sobieski

I'm a little confused about the name "Flurry of Sai." How is the melee weapon (sai) involved in specifically a non-adjacent attack?

While a lot of uses of sai were melee-based, as far as I can tell there’s a number of martial arts/sports that use them as thrown weapons in the vein of a large dart (I can provide links to some YouTube channels with some examples if you’re interested). I believe there is some historical martial arts-based use of it as a thrown weapon as well, although as a non-historical unit I think extrapolating from even modern uses as such here is pretty reasonable.

I shouldn't have to look up YouTube channels to understand a Heroscape power name. At least not when there are simple, easily-understood alternatives.

I am more than happy to go with Flurry of Shuriken then (and will update the card in the original post), if we assume SotM Shiori can act as a reasonable precedent for such things.

 

[Scytale]

These reworks are looking pretty solid. I share superfrog's balance concerns, but Jan is competing with a number of good Human Champions. My concern would be adding Jan as a secondary Champion, leaving him behind most of the time just to get the range-less boost. That will be addressed in playtesting.

to review Jan Sobieski

I'm a little confused about the name "Flurry of Sai." How is the melee weapon (sai) involved in specifically a non-adjacent attack?

While a lot of uses of sai were melee-based, as far as I can tell there’s a number of martial arts/sports that use them as thrown weapons in the vein of a large dart (I can provide links to some YouTube channels with some examples if you’re interested). I believe there is some historical martial arts-based use of it as a thrown weapon as well, although as a non-historical unit I think extrapolating from even modern uses as such here is pretty reasonable.

I shouldn't have to look up YouTube channels to understand a Heroscape power name. At least not when there are simple, easily-understood alternatives.

I am more than happy to go with Flurry of Shuriken then (and will update the card in the original post), if we assume SotM Shiori can act as a reasonable precedent for such things.

Yeah, that's fine. Though I don't especially get the "Flurry" part either for a single attack.

 

[Shadowking]

These reworks are looking pretty solid. I share superfrog's balance concerns, but Jan is competing with a number of good Human Champions. My concern would be adding Jan as a secondary Champion, leaving him behind most of the time just to get the range-less boost. That will be addressed in playtesting.

to review Jan Sobieski

I'm a little confused about the name "Flurry of Sai." How is the melee weapon (sai) involved in specifically a non-adjacent attack?

While a lot of uses of sai were melee-based, as far as I can tell there’s a number of martial arts/sports that use them as thrown weapons in the vein of a large dart (I can provide links to some YouTube channels with some examples if you’re interested). I believe there is some historical martial arts-based use of it as a thrown weapon as well, although as a non-historical unit I think extrapolating from even modern uses as such here is pretty reasonable.

I shouldn't have to look up YouTube channels to understand a Heroscape power name. At least not when there are simple, easily-understood alternatives.

I am more than happy to go with Flurry of Shuriken then (and will update the card in the original post), if we assume SotM Shiori can act as a reasonable precedent for such things.

Yeah, that's fine. Though I don't especially get the "Flurry" part either for a single attack.

My logic was that the second attack being made would be constituting the "flurry" part, but since one of the two can be made with Smoke Rider as a melee attack in some cases I can see the logic in using a different name. I have updated the original post with the changes now (the power name changed to Shuriken Expert).

 

[wriggz]

I vote no to review Jan. I believe the Grand Duke orders to call out too many classes and feels meta gamey instead of in keeping with canon. It can make for a powerful turn, but in practice it will just buff the knights so having archers and Soldiers included seems redundant. I think using the power to make Jan viable with both Roman squads and the KoW weakens the design. I believe there is opportunity to improve Jan's cheer leading capability to improve the design overall.

 

[Shadowking]

I vote no to review Jan. I believe the Grand Duke orders to call out too many classes and feels meta gamey instead of in keeping with canon. It can make for a powerful turn, but in practice it will just buff the knights so having archers and Soldiers included seems redundant. I think using the power to make Jan viable with both Roman squads and the KoW weakens the design. I believe there is opportunity to improve Jan's cheer leading capability to improve the design overall.

I agree that generally don't think playing him with Soldiers or Archers is particularly powerful, as 130 points is a lot for a once-per-round buff if he's giving you no additional synergies. The Soldiers and Archers clauses are actually mostly included for thematic purposes, as he commanded the entire Polish army of the time (which was largely comprised of hussars and other cavalry, light and heavy foot troops, and some artillery), so I felt calling out Knights specifically was actually more heavy-handed and a lot more "meta" than the broader options - in a similar vein I did originally have Warrior on there too (which did have additional synergy with bonding MacDirks), but didn't like how it paired with the Marro Warriors, as they have the relatively exclusive confluence of factors of already super undercosted and being a powerful unique squad that was very easy to splash into a bonding Knights build.

 

[Shadowking]

Actually, I don't know why I didn't consider this for this version (since several of the old versions also had the same Humans-only clause) but changing it to "a Human Soldier, Archer, Knight or Warrior Army Card" removes all the possibly strange options for the effect and leaves basically only the sorts of militaristic Humans you'd expect to see buffed by a historical commander figure in terms of theme - I already played him with the Human Warriors anyway (MacDirks and Vikings) and that wasn't an issue, really just the Marro Warriors. In the interests of trying to make sure this design is as good as it can be, am I OK to make that adjustment to the submission? If that requires me to formally remove the other one and repost, that's also fine.

 

[Scytale]

I'd prefer a resubmission with that change. And I'll be downvoting, as the design is going to far to force theme.

 

[Shadowking]

I'd prefer a resubmission with that change. And I'll be downvoting, as the design is going to far to force theme.

Do you think just doing it for Knights would be fine and not feel too "meta" then? He was famous for being a leader essentially the Polish equivalent of knights before he became the general of the entire Polish army (and in Heroscape terms, KoW and Templars are both knights and both the closest equivalents to the kinds of troops he'd have been mostly leading at that stage, plus I'd expect any specific Hussar units to also fall under a Knights class if there were appropriate figures), so I don't hate it as an option.

I also don't hate "Human Common Squad Army Card that follows Jandar or Einar" (cuts out the heroes obviously but leaves all the groups of military troops that make sense), which is similar to what one of the older versions used as a clause for a variant of this ability; however, it would include Ashigaru and Capuans which would likely warrant going back for some additional testing (Capuans aren't going to be an issue, but Ashigaru could potentially, although having played some of the other versions with them I doubt it it'd still worth making sure).

 

[MegaSilver]

I'm going to have to vote NO to review as well. It has the Valguard issue of a weak base attack. I feel like Tactical Disengagement is a better ability than Mobility. And the blanket move/attack boost with no interaction from Jan themself just doesn't make them interesting.

It's trying to do things similar to Sir Gilbert, but costs more and is a once per round ability. The Knights would rather have Sir Gilbert, and Archers/Soldiers maybe want the move/attack boost once a round? The 10th Regiment are going to be the stress point in that case, especially alongside Simon Fraser.

 

[MegaSilver]

I'm going to vote YES to review Yaseiha.

 

[Scytale]

I'd prefer a resubmission with that change. And I'll be downvoting, as the design is going to far to force theme.

Do you think just doing it for Knights would be fine and not feel too "meta" then? He was famous for being a leader essentially the Polish equivalent of knights before he became the general of the entire Polish army (and in Heroscape terms, KoW and Templars are both knights and both the closest equivalents to the kinds of troops he'd have been mostly leading at that stage, plus I'd expect any specific Hussar units to also fall under a Knights class if there were appropriate figures), so I don't hate it as an option.

I also don't hate "Human Common Squad Army Card that follows Jandar or Einar" (cuts out the heroes obviously but leaves all the groups of military troops that make sense), which is similar to what one of the older versions used as a clause for a variant of this ability; however, it would include Ashigaru and Capuans which would likely warrant going back for some additional testing (Capuans aren't going to be an issue, but Ashigaru could potentially, although having played some of the other versions with them I doubt it it'd still worth making sure).

This has strayed into workshopping territory and should move to the Pre-SoV thread.

Keep in mind that you need to serve multiple goals with a design, but the most important one is gameplay. You start a design like this by deciding how you are going to implement theme. You refine a design like this by deciding how to best implement gameplay. If the right thing for the design does not match what you want from the theme, then go back to the drawing board.

 

[Shadowking]

I'd prefer a resubmission with that change. And I'll be downvoting, as the design is going to far to force theme.

Do you think just doing it for Knights would be fine and not feel too "meta" then? He was famous for being a leader essentially the Polish equivalent of knights before he became the general of the entire Polish army (and in Heroscape terms, KoW and Templars are both knights and both the closest equivalents to the kinds of troops he'd have been mostly leading at that stage, plus I'd expect any specific Hussar units to also fall under a Knights class if there were appropriate figures), so I don't hate it as an option.

I also don't hate "Human Common Squad Army Card that follows Jandar or Einar" (cuts out the heroes obviously but leaves all the groups of military troops that make sense), which is similar to what one of the older versions used as a clause for a variant of this ability; however, it would include Ashigaru and Capuans which would likely warrant going back for some additional testing (Capuans aren't going to be an issue, but Ashigaru could potentially, although having played some of the other versions with them I doubt it it'd still worth making sure).

This has strayed into workshopping territory and should move to the Pre-SoV thread.

Keep in mind that you need to serve multiple goals with a design, but the most important one is gameplay. You start a design like this by deciding how you are going to implement theme. You refine a design like this by deciding how to best implement gameplay. If the right thing for the design does not match what you want from the theme, then go back to the drawing board.

Yeah, I am fairly sure the majority of these different versions have played fine from the testing I have done so far, but the nuances of the specifics & exact clauses of the abilities continue to be difficult. OK, I will pull Jan again and re-evaluate at a later time, and just go forward here with Yaseiha for now.

 

[Scytale]

Jan Sobieski has been removed from the process by the submitter's request.

 

[Shadowking]

I'm going to have to vote NO to review as well. It has the Valguard issue of a weak base attack. I feel like Tactical Disengagement is a better ability than Mobility. And the blanket move/attack boost with no interaction from Jan themself just doesn't make them interesting.

It's trying to do things similar to Sir Gilbert, but costs more and is a once per round ability. The Knights would rather have Sir Gilbert, and Archers/Soldiers maybe want the move/attack boost once a round? The 10th Regiment are going to be the stress point in that case, especially alongside Simon Fraser.

Kinda independantly of anything else/this specific card, but before I take it back to the drawing board, what do you think are the issues with Mobility? I was kind of trying to fix some of the things with Tactical Disengagement (mostly the fact that, when playing against it, you end up having to make several sometimes "pointless" rolls which can make the turns with it take unnesc. long - i.e rolling disengage damage every time and then the TD player having to roll to block it). Mobility is stronger (well, depending on what you set the number to), but only requires one roll per turn no matter what and is also a bit more "precise"/strategic on what to do when taking your turn (since you see the result before moving, but sometimes will want/need to take the disengage attacks regardless, which can be an interesting choice for you to make).

 

[wriggz]

I vote yes to review YASEIHA

Her passing swip is cool, and attacking from range after a big move feel natural and interesting. Might be a cool figure to rival kaemon for clean up duty. For a figure that is designed not to get tied down 5/3 life defense is the safe option, but I will chalk that up to difficulty getting high ground.

 

[Sir Heroscape]

I'm going to have to vote NO to review as well. It has the Valguard issue of a weak base attack. I feel like Tactical Disengagement is a better ability than Mobility. And the blanket move/attack boost with no interaction from Jan themself just doesn't make them interesting.

It's trying to do things similar to Sir Gilbert, but costs more and is a once per round ability. The Knights would rather have Sir Gilbert, and Archers/Soldiers maybe want the move/attack boost once a round? The 10th Regiment are going to be the stress point in that case, especially alongside Simon Fraser.

Kinda independantly of anything else/this specific card, but before I take it back to the drawing board, what do you think are the issues with Mobility? I was kind of trying to fix some of the things with Tactical Disengagement (mostly the fact that, when playing against it, you end up having to make several sometimes "pointless" rolls which can make the turns with it take unnesc. long - i.e rolling disengage damage every time and then the TD player having to roll to block it). Mobility is stronger (well, depending on what you set the number to), but only requires one roll per turn no matter what and is also a bit more "precise"/strategic on what to do when taking your turn (since you see the result before moving, but sometimes will want/need to take the disengage attacks regardless, which can be an interesting choice for you to make).

Pre-SoV Workshop

 

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Where did you get the name Yaseiha? It feels a little off to me.

 

[Scytale]

Where did you get the name Yaseiha? It feels a little off to me.

I would also like to know the answer to this.

Another question about Yaseiha. Shuriken Expert takes place "after attacking with a normal or special attack." How is that intended to work with Smoke Rider Special Attack? It is annoyingly unclear in Heroscape language what "after attacking" means for a special attack, as it could mean after rolling dice but before continuing movement, or it could mean after the entire attack phase. What is the intent? I'm trying to figure out if it can be worded clearly either way.

 

[Shadowking]

Where did you get the name Yaseiha? It feels a little off to me.

I would also like to know the answer to this.

Another question about Yaseiha. Shuriken Expert takes place "after attacking with a normal or special attack." How is that intended to work with Smoke Rider Special Attack? It is annoyingly unclear in Heroscape language what "after attacking" means for a special attack, as it could mean after rolling dice but before continuing movement, or it could mean after the entire attack phase. What is the intent? I'm trying to figure out if it can be worded clearly either way.

Sorry, I must have missed Maklar's post; her name is based on the Japanese word for "wild" ("yasei"). You are only supposed to be able to use Shuriken Expert after the entire process of Smoke Rider Special Attack (so only after making all the moves you do or do not want to make during it). Perhaps something along the lines of "after completing a normal or special attack" could help make that a little bit clearer?

 

[Scytale]

Where did you get the name Yaseiha? It feels a little off to me.

I would also like to know the answer to this.

Another question about Yaseiha. Shuriken Expert takes place "after attacking with a normal or special attack." How is that intended to work with Smoke Rider Special Attack? It is annoyingly unclear in Heroscape language what "after attacking" means for a special attack, as it could mean after rolling dice but before continuing movement, or it could mean after the entire attack phase. What is the intent? I'm trying to figure out if it can be worded clearly either way.

Sorry, I must have missed Maklar's post; her name is based on the Japanese word for "wild" ("yasei"). You are only supposed to be able to use Shuriken Expert after the entire process of Smoke Rider Special Attack (so only after making all the moves you do or do not want to make during it). Perhaps something along the lines of "after completing a normal or special attack" could help make that a little bit clearer?

I'm thinking "after moving and attacking with Yaseiha, if she attacked an opponent's figure with a normal or special attack ..."

 

[Shadowking]

Where did you get the name Yaseiha? It feels a little off to me.

I would also like to know the answer to this.

Another question about Yaseiha. Shuriken Expert takes place "after attacking with a normal or special attack." How is that intended to work with Smoke Rider Special Attack? It is annoyingly unclear in Heroscape language what "after attacking" means for a special attack, as it could mean after rolling dice but before continuing movement, or it could mean after the entire attack phase. What is the intent? I'm trying to figure out if it can be worded clearly either way.

Sorry, I must have missed Maklar's post; her name is based on the Japanese word for "wild" ("yasei"). You are only supposed to be able to use Shuriken Expert after the entire process of Smoke Rider Special Attack (so only after making all the moves you do or do not want to make during it). Perhaps something along the lines of "after completing a normal or special attack" could help make that a little bit clearer?

I'm thinking "after moving and attacking with Yaseiha, if she attacked an opponent's figure with a normal or special attack ..."

Mhm yeah that sounds good to me also.

 

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Where did you get the name Yaseiha? It feels a little off to me.

I would also like to know the answer to this.

Another question about Yaseiha. Shuriken Expert takes place "after attacking with a normal or special attack." How is that intended to work with Smoke Rider Special Attack? It is annoyingly unclear in Heroscape language what "after attacking" means for a special attack, as it could mean after rolling dice but before continuing movement, or it could mean after the entire attack phase. What is the intent? I'm trying to figure out if it can be worded clearly either way.

Sorry, I must have missed Maklar's post; her name is based on the Japanese word for "wild" ("yasei").

Right, that's what I thought. Yasei (野生) looks like it has a connotation of nature ("The Wild"). Is that right? If that's the case, I don't know if that is an appropriate name for this miniature. (My Japanese is very rusty, so if you've got a good grasp on the language I would love to know!)

 

[Shadowking]

Where did you get the name Yaseiha? It feels a little off to me.

I would also like to know the answer to this.

Another question about Yaseiha. Shuriken Expert takes place "after attacking with a normal or special attack." How is that intended to work with Smoke Rider Special Attack? It is annoyingly unclear in Heroscape language what "after attacking" means for a special attack, as it could mean after rolling dice but before continuing movement, or it could mean after the entire attack phase. What is the intent? I'm trying to figure out if it can be worded clearly either way.

Sorry, I must have missed Maklar's post; her name is based on the Japanese word for "wild" ("yasei").

Right, that's what I thought. Yasei (野生) looks like it has a connotation of nature ("The Wild"). Is that right? If that's the case, I don't know if that is an appropriate name for this miniature. (My Japanese is very rusty, so if you've got a good grasp on the language I would love to know!)

I am also no expert, but when researching it appeared to me as though it was used for both connotations like in English. I do have a friend who is currently living in Japan so I can ask him for input though - if it turns out I got it wrong, then yeah I'd be happy to get a different name that would be a better fit.

 

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

Where did you get the name Yaseiha? It feels a little off to me.

I would also like to know the answer to this.

Another question about Yaseiha. Shuriken Expert takes place "after attacking with a normal or special attack." How is that intended to work with Smoke Rider Special Attack? It is annoyingly unclear in Heroscape language what "after attacking" means for a special attack, as it could mean after rolling dice but before continuing movement, or it could mean after the entire attack phase. What is the intent? I'm trying to figure out if it can be worded clearly either way.

Sorry, I must have missed Maklar's post; her name is based on the Japanese word for "wild" ("yasei").

Right, that's what I thought. Yasei (野生) looks like it has a connotation of nature ("The Wild"). Is that right? If that's the case, I don't know if that is an appropriate name for this miniature. (My Japanese is very rusty, so if you've got a good grasp on the language I would love to know!)

I am also no expert, but when researching it appeared to me as though it was used for both connotations like in English. I do have a friend who is currently living in Japan so I can ask him for input though - if it turns out I got it wrong, then yeah I'd be happy to get a different name that would be a better fit.

I'm wracking my brain looking at Jisho and trying to piece this together.　All the example sentences I'm getting have stuff to do with nature and wildlife. I'm getting lots of stuff about "wild flowers", 野生の花 (yasei no hana) litterally translating to "flowers of the wild". Very curious to see what your friend says - and if it's derivation to Yaseiha makes sense as a name.

 

[Shadowking]

After discussing the matter with both my friend in Japan and @Maklar the Silver Prince (thanks for the help!), I have come to the conclusion that the word "yasei" does indeed lean more towards the connotations of the natural wild. Therefore, I have adjusted the card to use a new name, Akane ("ah-KAH-nay"), which is both a more traditional Japanese girl's name in the vein of the other Heroscape female ninjas and also means "deep red" (which evokes both Utgar's primary color, and lends a evocation of blood to her name). Here is the updated card with both that and Scytale's wording clarity update to Shuriken Mastery applied: