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Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Like I said earlier, I'm not opposed to the idea of the Shockgun's target figure being subject to the d20 roll, I just avoided it to have a less wordy power and larger type that was easier to read. That said, if it's a sticking point I'm fine with revising my submission with a new version:


nordlung_3__sov_95859.jpg


I think I managed to word the effect while only adding one extra line of text to the power and not making the type any smaller than it was before, although the space between the powers is a little tighter than I usually make it on my cards.
 
I don't really understand the intent of the reworded power. Is it that the shock only occurs if the target of the attack is a non-Jandar Soulborg?

This is also a significant increase to the power against single targets. It's a chance of auto-wounding despite the target's defenses. A real DW killer. Have you tested this version?
 
I don't really understand the intent of the reworded power. Is it that the shock only occurs if the target of the attack is a non-Jandar Soulborg?

This is also a significant increase to the power against single targets. It's a chance of auto-wounding despite the target's defenses. A real DW killer. Have you tested this version?

I'm clearly back tracking here but I wonder if the original power was better by accident, even if it seems odd that the target figure is not impacted, it has the secondary effect of not punishing the deathborgs. It seems to be a gladitron and rat zapper at that point.
 
I don't really understand the intent of the reworded power. Is it that the shock only occurs if the target of the attack is a non-Jandar Soulborg?

The intent of the wording is that the d20 is rolled against the target figure (if it's a Soulborg) and any adjacent figure (if they are Soulborgs).


Have you tested this version?

No, it was just an idea in response to wriggz and Vydar's feedback. My testing of the original version didn't show Nordlung to be dominant even when facing Soulborg-heavy armies (chas thought he actually felt a little underwhelming in that matchup at 160 points), so I figured a tweak this minor could be covered by a 5-point increase.


I'm clearly back tracking here but I wonder if the original power was better by accident, even if it seems odd that the target figure is not impacted, it has the secondary effect of not punishing the deathborgs. It seems to be a gladitron and rat zapper at that point.

I feel like there's some miscommunication going on here. In the original version, the target figure was impacted - it suffered a 4-dice attack. The adjacent figures were also impacted by potential damage, just in the form of a d20 roll instead of attack dice. Both versions are capable of punishing Deathwalkers, rats, etc... :confused:
 
I mean the target figure did not roll for shock damage. The D20 and deathborgs always create concerns, which the original design addresses, though some might find it metagamey
 
We will consider this design to be a full resubmit.

For this new version of Nordlung, I vote :down: to review. Auto-wound powers are always hazardous due to the existence of the Deathwalkers, and this version of the special attack seems custom-made to negate their existence. That may be thematic, but it's no fun for the DW player. It goes beyond that, though, as low-Life and high-Defense is common for Soulborgs, and this is nasty to all of them. Before there was counterplay by spreading units and relying on sturdy Defense, whereas there is no way to play around this version.
 
Before there was counterplay by spreading units and relying on sturdy Defense, whereas there is no way to play around this version.

I agree that the former version allowed Nordlung's soulborg opponents more of an ability to avoid the d20 roll by strategically placing their units, and thus more player agency, which is one reason I preferred it and submitted it first. Unfortunately, it was found to feel weird by some. With that said, I'll withdraw the submission; I think trying to riff on the Omnicron Repulsors is proving to be more trouble than it's worth. I'll see if I can workshop something else in the pre-SoV thread. Thanks for the time.
 
High Dune Scorpions by @Sir Heroscape and @Leaf_It

Valhalla could really use some more insects. I mean arachnids.

Balance

The High Dune Scorpions have a pretty great combination of 6 Move and 4 Defense, allowing them to get into the fight quickly and hold out well once they're there. But that Defense stat is somewhat misleading, as their underbellies are fairly weak. On the other hand, their 2 Attack is also somewhat misleading as they have a pretty consistent defense reduction ability. For a comparison we can look at the similarly-priced Axegrinders of Burning Forge, the non-bonding version. The Dwarves have a better attack and bonding as an option, and more defense with height advantage and less defense without. So a reasonable comparison, one that looks like it's probably in the Dwarves' favor on paper.

Theme

Venom is a must on a scorpion design, and I appreciate it not being anti-Hero. Real-life scorpions do have thinner armor underneath but not drastically so, but as a trope I can appreciate Underbelly. The high speed and lower attack fit the Heroscape insect mold, and having higher defense than other insects also makes thematic sense.

Creativity

While much of the design would be expected of a scorpion design, the shining bit of creativity here is Underbelly. While thematic in a trope-y way, it is a very simple power that drastically changes how the unit plays and leads to lots of challenging in-game decisions.

Playability

Playing the High Dune Scorpions feels nicely different than other melee squads. They are fast and not especially hard-hitting but they are pretty tough, but what's really unique is that they are somewhat afraid of high ground. Similarly, the opponent appreciates going after the weak underbellies from below when exposed, so fighting against is also fairly unique. Not that it's a fight over the low ground, per se, as the extra attack die is always valuable, but the High Dunes are content to remain lower to keep their underbelly protected. It's sometimes a tough decision whether or not to risk the counterattack to gain the extra attack die.

Other aspects of the design support their unique playstyle as well. Paralyzing Venom helps make up for their weaker Attack and their fear of heights, and their very small size often makes adjacent elevations protective shields against melee instead of disadvantages.

Overall they are nastier than you'd think based on the card alone. Almost too nasty... Paralyzing Venom is quite debilitating for many squads. Add in Estivara's sizable attack buff aura and they can really sting (pun intended). As I was playing I had a nagging feeling that the Venom rolls were a bit too consistent. I would feel better if the both target values were one higher, but as it is I can't really fail them as overpowered, just uncomfortably good.

I didn't like everything, though. Even after numerous games I kept forgetting to roll for Paralyzing Venom before moving. It just never felt natural to make the roll before moving instead of before attacking. It does matter, though, for the movement phase, and there is clear precedent with the Anubian Wolves (though in that case it more necessary because of the '1' roll). So I'm willing to except this issue as a me problem instead of a design one. Though I'm curious if other Judges will have the same issue.

Summary

The High Dune Scorpions are simple, thematic, and provide a unique gameplay experience. That's a real sweetspot for me. (Before I take flack, a card doesn't have to be a single-power card to be "simple.") There are, however, a couple things that nagged at me: Paralyzing Venom felt a little too consistent, and it always felt weird that it happened before movement instead of before attacking. This was a difficult decision, but even together those issues aren't enough for me to downvote.

I vote Yea to induct the High Dune Scorpions into the SoV.
 
Major F19 Submission
I've waffled on this one a bit because I like the ideas and themes here, and do want to see this sculpt used, but it definitely does not match the aesthetic of any Vydar Soulborgs that we've seen (who is one of the generals with a wealth of Soulborgs establishing his "look"). If this wasn't the sixth sculpt in a pack of five that VC already uses, then I don't believe that we'd consider it as heavily for Vydar.

I do also have a concern about how Scrambled Communications might penalize unique-based armies excessively (which are already generally weaker), especially since it doesn't hit armies with a single card and is otherwise going to be used most in clean-up, but I'd be willing to see how that plays out in practice.

I'd like to see this design tweaked to fit either a non-Soulborg theme or a different general's line, but as a Vydar Soulborg, I unfortunately am a :down: to review.

Annunhounds Submission
I like leaning into the Wild Hunt motif, and the restriction on attack targeting feels really thematic for Hunter bonding. I do have a slight qualm in that the Cŵn Annwn theme does not come across very well from the card alone at the moment, but you make a solid argument for changing the pronunciation in line with other Feylund units. :up: to review.

Jan Sobieski Submission
I feel like this iteration of the design runs the risk of overshadowing Sir Dupuis, largely due to actually bonding with the knights and a similar charging playstyle. Of course, Jan also runs the risk himself of being overshadowed by Alastair, and I'm not sure that the Knights are in need of a tanky alternative with a special attack.

From some initial research, I can understand wanting to make Jan follow Jandar to illustrate certain aspects of the character, though the mini and historical angle will likely lead to questions about Einar. That could also offer some opportunities for different synergy webs to consider with fewer direct comparisons, though it would lose out on some of the theme that you're going for. Alternatively, focusing more on the cavalry angle could be interesting. Just some food for thought.

My only real hold-up with reviewing the design right now is Evasive 2, though. Mechanically, it makes total sense for cavalry units. Thematically, it needs a stronger justification for Jan to have that power, and it stands out in comparison to the rest of the card. :down: to review.

Jezabella Submission
A bard following Aquilla is a fun theme, but I'm partial to Dysole and Vydar's concerns about the name. I also think that the powers would benefit from a pass through the Pre-SoV Workshop to refine them.

Lyrical Inspiration is interesting (especially by boosting heroes more than squads), but 12 turns feels too high to start with. It might be worth using the markers for defense to burn through the stack on opposing turns before she dies, but otherwise, it's going to be better to use them on attack dice. Incognito might also buy her enough turns to use the markers "optimally."

:down: to review, though I'd like to see a refined version of her back in the future.
 
Apparently I've been behind on votes to review, sorry for that.

:up: to review Annunhounds.

:down: to review Jan. General seems like it should be Einar and I agree with the other judges that Evasive is weak thematically.
 
I'll take him back to the drawing board for now then, but I have a couple follow-ups to the reviews on Jan first:

1. Is there any opposition to a Human Champion fitting under non-Jandar generals? I'm fine with it, but I was also fine with him under Jandar, so maybe I'm just not as picky at dividing the line between who gets what historicals. I do want him to keep the initial conceit of a mounted Human Champion though.

2. I had some versions of him with the Evasive power under different, more thematic names (and it tested decently well mechanically to me), but felt it was cleaner to just consolidate it under the name of an existing power that, to me, fit the theme based on the name alone (although I agree it's not nesc. a 100% perfect fit if you look at the other units with it and what they imply it has connotations of). If I go back to the drawing board it might end up getting cut regardless, but is the problem more with the mechanics or more with the naming here (or I guess both)?
 
1. Is there any opposition to a Human Champion fitting under non-Jandar generals?
Doesn't bother me.

2. I had some versions of him with the Evasive power under different, more thematic names (and it tested decently well mechanically to me), but felt it was cleaner to just consolidate it under the name of an existing power that, to me, fit the theme based on the name alone (although I agree it's not nesc. a 100% perfect fit if you look at the other units with it and what they imply it has connotations of). If I go back to the drawing board it might end up getting cut regardless, but is the problem more with the mechanics or more with the naming here (or I guess both)?
I don't have a problem with either the use of the power or the name, if it's important to the design (is it?). I do not want Evasive with a different name.
 
My Thoughts

I'll take him back to the drawing board for now then, but I have a couple follow-ups to the reviews on Jan first:

1. Is there any opposition to a Human Champion fitting under non-Jandar generals? I'm fine with it, but I was also fine with him under Jandar, so maybe I'm just not as picky at dividing the line between who gets what historicals. I do want him to keep the initial conceit of a mounted Human Champion though.

2. I had some versions of him with the Evasive power under different, more thematic names (and it tested decently well mechanically to me), but felt it was cleaner to just consolidate it under the name of an existing power that, to me, fit the theme based on the name alone (although I agree it's not nesc. a 100% perfect fit if you look at the other units with it and what they imply it has connotations of). If I go back to the drawing board it might end up getting cut regardless, but is the problem more with the mechanics or more with the naming here (or I guess both)?

Hawthorne is a Human Champion under a different general so I have no issues there.

I stand by my original assessment that a tactical disengage like Dupuis or beefier stats would be better than Evasive.

~Dysole, briefly
 
OK, after some updates and additional testing etc, I would like to submit this updated version of what was formerly Kafnirra, now renamed Brigdhe (to better highlight her reworked Scottish-Gaelic theming). In terms of exactly what's changed, other than her name & theming, she has a new power name for her 1st power to better tie into that theming and a full rework and new name for her 2nd power (I do not know if it needs to specifically state she can be chosen for Highland Fury, but since both elements happen at the same "phase" of the game, it felt like it was worth it for clarity; if not, I'm happy to remove that line as it doesn't change anything in terms of actual mechanics). None of the updates caused anything that felt problematic in the games, and hopefully she now has a stronger theme overall as well as a clearer 2nd power; I have been pretty happy with the changes.

60t6QOT.png


The Jan reworks will need more time to cook & more testing against various things, but hopefully I will be able to get to an updated card for him that satisfies me at some point in the future weeks/months as well.
 
Jim Whitecloud by @Pumpkin_King (submitted by @Leaf_It)

Jim Whitecloud straddles two worlds in two worlds: both a Native American and a U.S. Lawman in the old West, and both Tribesmen and Lawman factions in Valhalla.

Balance

Jim should be compared against both Lawmen and Tribesman. The first is more straightforward, as his stats and cost line up with the likes of Johnny "Shotgun" Sullivan and James Murphy, with a Tomahawk and a Lasso instead of a Shotgun and Whip. Is that about the same? Difficult to really say given how different they are. Both have high theoretical value. Shotgun can be played around, but it's that fear factor that causes inefficient movements that provides its true value. Whitecloud's abilities are far harder to play around, sometimes even impossible, but that also means it doesn't really have a passive effect.

The Tribesman comparison is even more difficult as the existing Tribesmen are cheaper and thus fit differently into armies. The Makwa Tribesman provides a similar ranged attack but don't have the solid Life or the potentially amazing Lasso, and Brave Arrow lacks range. So it's hard to tell, but the price isn't unreasonable in general. Lasso is the real wildcard.

Theme

The theme is that the Native American lawman straddles two worlds, and that comes through in the design. The stat line is standard Lawman, and Lasso is a fitting Lawman power that both plays to the in-game familiar and matches the miniature, whereas Tomahawk echoes the Mohican River Tribe while also matching the miniature.

I don't have a problem with being both a Tribesman and a Lawman, but I don't like how strangely complicated Law of the Land is. Would it change anything at all if it was unconditional? I can't think of any reason the unit would play differently if he was always both a Tribesman and a Lawman, instead of only donning his badge when a peer or lawbreaker is around. I don't see a thematic reason either.

Creativity

I appreciate how the design feels like both a Tribesman and a Lawman without feeling forced. Both sides come through, the abilities are useful and work well together while modeling the miniature, and everything feels like it belongs and is needed by the design.

Playability

Jim Whitecloud obviously fits in two different factions, as well as doing fine as a solo add-in (especially as a cleanup figure). He isn't particularly great at any of them, though.

Another Lawman working under Clayton Pierce is nice to have, but he's not a necessary addition. For the most part his role in that army is better filled by Louis "Mad Dog" Malone, who holds out longer in a melee fight and fights back arguably better. They're also both Aquilla, so Ranjit builds aren't improved by his inclusion. With Mad Dog holding the line, Jim's meager gunman skills aren't much to add to a Shootout, and Lasso loses most of its potency when Jim isn't getting full turns.

As a Tribesman he's fine, but nothing special really. As a figure that takes potshots while moving up Teeth of the Makwa, he doesn't really offer much beyond what a couple of Makwa Tribesman do (and he can't spread out to different places like multiple Mawka Tribesman can). It's the same story when using him as a pseudo-bonding option for the Mohican River Tribe, and Brave Arrow offers some other value as a melee bonder.

Mr. Whitecloud is also fine as an affordable filler, but nothing amazing. He can do great in cleanup if everything goes his way, but that's true for a lot of units. His abilities give him some nice options, including a long range and some melee tricks, but there are other units who do a lot of what he does better.

Summary

Jim Whitecloud is decent at a bunch of different things but doesn't excel at any. And that's probably for the best; there's value in having options. Lasso is potentially game-changing, but it's usually risky and it's not consistent enough to rely on, so it ends up being more of an occasional bonus than a strategy. Jim isn't a superhero, but I think there's a place for him in Valhalla.

I vote Yea to induct Jim Whitecloud into the SoV.
 
The Annunhounds by @Blue Trails did not pass United Fanscape Review and are removed from the process. It was a close vote without strong feelings on either side. The downvotes largely reflected the downvotes from the initial review vote: does not tie well to the Cŵn Annwn theme, availability concerns, and some discussion about improving the power's name.
 
Masha Shingai by Astroking112


It looks like I have the deciding vote here, lovely, no pressure.

I just want to say from the beginning that I was not a judge for the previous version of Masha Shingai, so I don’t have that frame of reference to build from for this review. No need for anybody to waste time looking for a previous review from me that doesn’t exist.

Creativity/Theme
All right, we have a Yokai Samurai. Samurai have been in the game since the beginning and the Yokai are brand new. The Yokai, from my understanding and from the info provided with the submission are from Japanese folklore. This is a pretty wide net of a species encompassing everything from the terrifying Oni to the cute Tanuki. This gives me a bit of pause, but it’s no more overarching than Undead currently is.

The miniature really does evoke the theme that is equal parts warrior and Demon. It just looks awesome on the table.

Masha is the first non-human samurai, so none of the human samurai precedents need to apply. I like how Masha doesn’t have Counterstrike. Fiery Retribution fills the same role of an “attacking while defending power” on the card and does it with a very fitting demonic theme that matches the miniature quite well.

Terror of the Honorless is the highlight of the design. It is the first large aura attack debuff in VC. Taking this step certainly raises some warning flags in terms of playability and fun, but I think it hits the theme right on.


Balance
The other reviewing judges covered most of the bases in this section, so I’ll try to summarize. Masha is a Menacer/Cheerleader-Hybrid which makes a lot of direct comparisons difficult.

image.png

Uzog is a close comparison. He has a defense reduction power where Masha has an attack reduction power. Akumaken has both debuff and damage-on-defense powers, but his powers have a significantly smaller area of effect. Torin is the only other figure that has a damage-on defense power that affects more than just himself. You could put Ataraxis in this chart for her defense reduction aura, but the Nanobots and Range make her a really poor point of comparison.

All 4 in the chart are comparable in terms of raw stats. Masha is on the faster and stronger end, but the lowest in terms of “Lifense.” It would seem that from a direct comparison to these 3 other heroes one would expect Masha to cost more than 110, but (and this is the only reason I include current delta prices in the chart above) the delta group has determined that the comparison points are relatively overpriced (to roughly the same degree, notably). Masha at 110 might be more accurate than the 110-120 of the others. This led me to be more cognizant of Masha’s points than I have been of other reviewed submissions. After playtesting, I think 110 ± is close to right on.


Playability
It would seem that the linchpin of this review is whether or not I agree with Bigga in that Masha is “frustrating to play against.” In agreement with superfrog, the premise that “it's no fun to play against figures that are no fun to play against,” is 100% accurate and so I really want to make sure Masha doesn’t fall into this category.

Overall, I find myself enjoying the thematic armies that include Masha. Tagawa Samurai Archers + Raelin (or Taro in delta), and Unique Samurai with Tomoe. These are fun, balanced, and thematic, so I’m not going to focus on what isn’t the pain-point.

Let’s be frank, trying to get through 6-defense Rats with debuffed attacks is rough, like really rough. And if Terror of the Honorless didn’t require a revealed OM, this review would be an easy thumbs-down. No question. But it does, and I think that caveat is exactly how it needs to be balanced.

Imagine we’re playing VCheese against the classic Q9 army with Masha instead of a Hydra. On the surface, this looks way worse for melee, but I don’t think the math works out that way. Typically, 4-figure melee squads are rolling 12 attack dice per turn (4 attacks at 3 dice each) without buffs or bonding. Q9 is always rolling 9 dice. So, again roughly, 36 to 27 attack dice per round. Adding Masha to the mix; the melee squad is rolling 8 attack dice per turn (4 attacks of 2 dice each) without buffs or bonding. And Q9 is still rolling 9 dice, but only twice-a-round. Totaling 24 to 18 attack dice per round. That’s the exact same ratio. Obviously, this is surface level, as I’m not a statistics guy, and there are many other factors that can come into play. Are you taking an attack of 5 with Masha on each of his turns? If you are, then he’s likely vulnerable, getting attacked and won't be doing his job protecting the Rats for much longer. Can the melee player get 5 dice worth of buffs or bonding across the round to match Masha’s attack? Probably. None of Gilbert, Alastair, Grimnak, Chomp, or Commander’s Strike are factored in here. And they could just win initiative getting a turn with no debuff. Additionally, the melee player gets significantly better numbers when comparing quantity of attacks. Masha doesn’t change that for them, but he does limit Q9 (or Krav, or Borgs, etc.) to 6 attacks a round. So, at best, Masha does not change any odds, just makes the games take longer by reducing offensive output of each army by roughly a third each round. Or at worst, he’s increasing variance against his own player. Not ideal in a cheese format. These matchups will still come down to how well the melee player can manage to maximize the value of all the figures in their army. They have a harder job, but more time to complete it.

That’s just one example, but I’ve already written over 1000 words, so I don’t necessarily want or feel the need to provide more.

I feel confident in saying that playing into Masha + Rats + Rae is not a fun game. Especially in an uphill matchup. (Quahon still doesn’t care, of course.) But on the other hand, Masha doesn’t make the "Rats + Rae + Range" armies better by including him. And a game with 3x Rats a side is probably worse. Making Rats the problem. Shocking, I know! I’m fairly confident that Masha won’t see much play in Cheese-tier armies, so I’m not incredibly worried about seeing the combo too often. (Especially with the recent prevalence of delta.)


Summary
All that to say that I agree with Frog #1 that Masha + Rats + Rae is not fun, AND I agree with Frog #2 that the builds that Masha makes un-fun are mostly better without Masha. In Masha’s best and most thematic armies his powers complement the army without being overwhelming or problematic. The Creativity and Theme of this design are on point, and the bio, ahh, chef’s kiss. Really well done.

I vote YES to induct Masha Shingai into the SoV.

Congratulations @Astroking112
 
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