Nordlung by @Sherman Davies has received two Nay votes to induct (Vydar_XLIII and Scytale) and is removed from the process.
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Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
- Thread starter Scytale
- Start date
Thanks for the consideration, guys. I'll try and retool Nordlung using the feedback given, run a few games, and see about resubmitting him down the road.
superfrog
This is merely a joke.
Rujin by @Sir Heroscape
I'll keep this review shorter than normal because it's fairly straightforward.
Rujin is a very workable bonder for the Durgeth Ravagers. Due to his lack of movement restrictions and his high life, he adds a bit of flexibility that Uzog and Pel do not have.
The abilities all work together nicely to create a swamp monster vibe, although the Thick Skin ability sometimes strikes me as a bit odd since it could also be framed as a negative (3D, -1 against specials), and usually you just think of Rujin as 3D (at least I did in testing).
Rujin does not fundamentally address the Ravagers' biggest issues as a build which is the unreliability of the hero activation and the low survivability. And Rujin is only really super worthwhile on a swamp map. But both of those are okay, bad factions can still get fleshed out, and terrain-dependent units exist. An attack of 4 is pretty good anyway, so it's not like he's worthless outside of swamp.
I appreciate that this version of Rujin is not oppressive against low-attack armies. 2 attack can get through him if you give it enough time, although it's still slow.
Overall, Rujin is a tight thematic package, hits the right notes on the battlefield, isn't broken in corner cases, and fleshes out a build that can feel a little one-note at times.
to induct.
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Also, to review the remaining Aldorn faction cards.
I'll keep this review shorter than normal because it's fairly straightforward.
Rujin is a very workable bonder for the Durgeth Ravagers. Due to his lack of movement restrictions and his high life, he adds a bit of flexibility that Uzog and Pel do not have.
The abilities all work together nicely to create a swamp monster vibe, although the Thick Skin ability sometimes strikes me as a bit odd since it could also be framed as a negative (3D, -1 against specials), and usually you just think of Rujin as 3D (at least I did in testing).
Rujin does not fundamentally address the Ravagers' biggest issues as a build which is the unreliability of the hero activation and the low survivability. And Rujin is only really super worthwhile on a swamp map. But both of those are okay, bad factions can still get fleshed out, and terrain-dependent units exist. An attack of 4 is pretty good anyway, so it's not like he's worthless outside of swamp.
I appreciate that this version of Rujin is not oppressive against low-attack armies. 2 attack can get through him if you give it enough time, although it's still slow.
Overall, Rujin is a tight thematic package, hits the right notes on the battlefield, isn't broken in corner cases, and fleshes out a build that can feel a little one-note at times.
to induct.---------
Also,
to review the remaining Aldorn faction cards.
Master Aldorn, Visages of Aldorn, and Lady Aldorn have all received 5 Yea votes to review (Scytale, Vydar_XLIII, Dysole, wriggz, and superfrog (also here)) and move forward in the process.
Blue Trails
Guest
After numerous playtesting games and years as a functional and similar home custom, I'd like to submit my own Annunhounds to SoV consideration.
Bio (Unofficial): When a shroud of night and fog falls over the mountains of Feylund and its twin moons shine fully over the trees, silence breaks as the dreadful howls of the Annunhounds fill the air. These spectral beasts dash over rock, plain, and hill in tireless pursuit of wicked souls, following their quarry to the ends of the world. Even if escape seems possible, the relief of the hunted lasts mere seconds before the clever pack calls their master to the hunt.Card Text:
Balance:
7 Move and 4 Defense give the Annunhounds a good chance against many ranged units, although tougher squads like the 10th Reg. give them trouble, as do multi-special-attackers that can exceed their attack output each turn. Moreover, while respectable against frailer ranged units, two attacks of 3 aren't going to beat massed, competent melee units any time soon. The hounds aren't supposed to tear through an opponent's army, though; their role is to tie down high-value targets for their Hunter Heroes, establish stronger board presence for a Hunter-heavy army, and act as an emergency screen, if necessary; and they have enough survivability and mobility to succeed in their task.
Theme:
The Annunhounds are directly adapted from the Cŵn Annwn, beasts from the Germanic Wild Hunt mythos. The Wild Hunt, itself, is a suitable match for Heroscape's themes and for a Feylundian unit, as it exists in various European cultures folklore—including Norse mythology; although it is a D&D unit, the Master of the Hunt provides precedent for this notion.
The Cŵn Annwn are the spectral hunting hounds featured in the Welsh version of the Wild Hunt tales, serving both to usher the newly deceased to the afterlife and to pursue and torment the wicked souls they encounter. The Species of "Spirit," chosen on suggestion from Scytale, conveys this idea nicely: the Annunhounds aren't quite Undead, but they're still immaterial beings closely involved with the dead. Moreover, while they bear resemblance to Europe's prolific hell hounds, the Cŵn Annwn hold the unique cosmetic distinction of pure white coats and red ears, due to the colors' significance in Welsh folklore: white is associated with the supernatural, while red is associated with death. This makes the translucent white sculpts chosen especially appropriate. The ears can be fixed with a dab of paint, if desired, but such a minor inconsistency isn't really worth the worry.
As a bonding "support" unit for the Hunter class, the Annunhounds try to emulate the concept of game hunting with dogs. This is reflected in Quarry Chasing's targeting limitation. The swift Annunhounds run ahead and locate prey for their huntmasters. When you choose to release the hounds, you consciously restrict your targets to those flushed out or trapped by the beasts, but your hunt is more likely to succeed.
Creativity and Playability:
There's nothing revolutionary about Hunter bonding, especially as others have attempted similar concepts in the past, and actual hounds acting as the vessel for such a role don't take a genius to depict, either. However, the Annunhounds aim to unite these concepts into a coherent whole. Their powers are similarly simple yet effective: Quarry Coursing is a straightforward conditional bonding variant, while Phantom Walk is ubiquitous and easily understood. As for army building, drafting the Annunhounds alongside two of Arktos, van Nessing, and Himmelskrale is always an attractive option, but other Hunter Heroes can work as well; Dund, in particular, becomes more threatening when able to use his Crippling Gaze without the commitment of an Order Marker. The worst bonding target I encountered during testing was the Feral Troll, but it still appreciated the Annunhounds' ability to impede swarming squaddies.
Sculpts & Availability
This could be the unit's most formidable obstacle. The sculpts are Pathfinder Deep Cuts Hell Hounds and come in packs of two figures. They were readily available both when I first made the unit and when I checked last year, but they appear to have dwindled since then. I'll enclose the full list of sources in spoiler tags, but suffice to say that the current supply is represented by the unlisted amount carried by Paizo themselves as well as at least 85 other packs found across the Internet.
Retailers
Acknowledgements:
Special credit and thanks go to Leaf_It; while tuning this design I learned that he had previously submitted a unit to the SoV using the same sculpts, but he graciously gave me permission to move forward with the Annunhounds.
Thank you for your consideration.
Bio (Unofficial): When a shroud of night and fog falls over the mountains of Feylund and its twin moons shine fully over the trees, silence breaks as the dreadful howls of the Annunhounds fill the air. These spectral beasts dash over rock, plain, and hill in tireless pursuit of wicked souls, following their quarry to the ends of the world. Even if escape seems possible, the relief of the hunted lasts mere seconds before the clever pack calls their master to the hunt.
Spoiler Alert!
Balance:
7 Move and 4 Defense give the Annunhounds a good chance against many ranged units, although tougher squads like the 10th Reg. give them trouble, as do multi-special-attackers that can exceed their attack output each turn. Moreover, while respectable against frailer ranged units, two attacks of 3 aren't going to beat massed, competent melee units any time soon. The hounds aren't supposed to tear through an opponent's army, though; their role is to tie down high-value targets for their Hunter Heroes, establish stronger board presence for a Hunter-heavy army, and act as an emergency screen, if necessary; and they have enough survivability and mobility to succeed in their task.
Theme:
The Annunhounds are directly adapted from the Cŵn Annwn, beasts from the Germanic Wild Hunt mythos. The Wild Hunt, itself, is a suitable match for Heroscape's themes and for a Feylundian unit, as it exists in various European cultures folklore—including Norse mythology; although it is a D&D unit, the Master of the Hunt provides precedent for this notion.
The Cŵn Annwn are the spectral hunting hounds featured in the Welsh version of the Wild Hunt tales, serving both to usher the newly deceased to the afterlife and to pursue and torment the wicked souls they encounter. The Species of "Spirit," chosen on suggestion from Scytale, conveys this idea nicely: the Annunhounds aren't quite Undead, but they're still immaterial beings closely involved with the dead. Moreover, while they bear resemblance to Europe's prolific hell hounds, the Cŵn Annwn hold the unique cosmetic distinction of pure white coats and red ears, due to the colors' significance in Welsh folklore: white is associated with the supernatural, while red is associated with death. This makes the translucent white sculpts chosen especially appropriate. The ears can be fixed with a dab of paint, if desired, but such a minor inconsistency isn't really worth the worry.
As a bonding "support" unit for the Hunter class, the Annunhounds try to emulate the concept of game hunting with dogs. This is reflected in Quarry Chasing's targeting limitation. The swift Annunhounds run ahead and locate prey for their huntmasters. When you choose to release the hounds, you consciously restrict your targets to those flushed out or trapped by the beasts, but your hunt is more likely to succeed.
Creativity and Playability:
There's nothing revolutionary about Hunter bonding, especially as others have attempted similar concepts in the past, and actual hounds acting as the vessel for such a role don't take a genius to depict, either. However, the Annunhounds aim to unite these concepts into a coherent whole. Their powers are similarly simple yet effective: Quarry Coursing is a straightforward conditional bonding variant, while Phantom Walk is ubiquitous and easily understood. As for army building, drafting the Annunhounds alongside two of Arktos, van Nessing, and Himmelskrale is always an attractive option, but other Hunter Heroes can work as well; Dund, in particular, becomes more threatening when able to use his Crippling Gaze without the commitment of an Order Marker. The worst bonding target I encountered during testing was the Feral Troll, but it still appreciated the Annunhounds' ability to impede swarming squaddies.
Sculpts & Availability
This could be the unit's most formidable obstacle. The sculpts are Pathfinder Deep Cuts Hell Hounds and come in packs of two figures. They were readily available both when I first made the unit and when I checked last year, but they appear to have dwindled since then. I'll enclose the full list of sources in spoiler tags, but suffice to say that the current supply is represented by the unlisted amount carried by Paizo themselves as well as at least 85 other packs found across the Internet.
Retailers
Spoiler Alert!
Acknowledgements:
Special credit and thanks go to Leaf_It; while tuning this design I learned that he had previously submitted a unit to the SoV using the same sculpts, but he graciously gave me permission to move forward with the Annunhounds.
Thank you for your consideration.
Last edited:
That availability is ... not good. Ones and twosies scattered across many sites is not good availability in general, but for a Common unit it's especially bad. Moreso for a cheap potential bread-and-butter type squad this appears to be.
Master Aldorn, the Visages of Aldorn, and Lady Aldorn have all passed United Fanscape Review and move forward in the process.
Shadowking
Active member
OK, after some additional input from the Discord, the simplification of Jan's powers in terms of wordiness/complexity down to their distilled essence, and Kafnirra's small shift in theme & General and other minor cleanup, *and* some additional playtesting just to confirm the tweaks, I would like to officially submit both of these heroes (as two seperate submissions).
Jan Sobieski
Kafnirra
Jan Sobieski
Spoiler Alert!
Kafnirra
Spoiler Alert!
Shadowking
Active member
I included some notes on that in the write-up (although I am not familiar on every store since I do not live in the US) - the largest stocks I found: Lastwall General has 20+ copies available on MiniatureMarket, the Human Hunter has 24 copies on Auggies, and both have large amounts for sale on EBay including from stores and not just individual sellers (was around 50+ for Lastwall General - mostly from the store "kingsoflight" and 200ish for Human Hunter when I checked - "kingsoflight" has 100+, there are other sellers with at least 10 copies and then the usual 1s-2s from people). Lastwall General is also still in stock on the Paizo site. There are def. smaller amounts in stock from some other sites on both as well - for example, figurephenatix.com has 4 Hunters and 7 Generals, magicminiman.com has 4 Hunters and 6 Generals, I just now checked rpglocker.com which has 9 Hunters and 31 Generals; the stock should def. be out there for Unique Hero figures.
EDIT: Some more Hunters: overthebrick.com has 16 Hunters, lingstergames.com has 5 Hunters, beholderthebargains.com has 2 Hunters.
Sir Heroscape
Sir Formerly Known As adoney
I'm no judge...but adding both a bonding Ranged unit and a bonding, highly mobile, Can-opener to an already A tier squad seems a bit much.
I'm curious to hear how your testing with KoW was? what kind of matchups you ran, and the overall success of those games?
I'm curious to hear how your testing with KoW was? what kind of matchups you ran, and the overall success of those games?
Captain Stupendous
Moderator
Shadowking
Active member
Jan mostly suffers a lot from not being Gilbert in my experience; if you bring both of them it eats up so many points that you can't afford to bring enough Knights to make it worth it (even at 500 points non-Delta you can only fit 3 squads of Knights, 500 Delta you can't even fit 3 Knights, Gilbert, Jan into 500). If you threw him into an enemy army on his own he tended to just die - double base and 3 defence in melee are not ideal for being mosh-piled - so the best thing I found to do is sort of slowly advance him up and then use him to point-break the frontline. If he can get at something like an exposed Raelin or other high value small/medium hero then you can typically "trade" him for that but generally the other player can accomodate for that and block off easy access barring sometimes getting an unlucky initiative switch.
I think Alastair is generally the better option in terms of a Knight-bonding "can-opener" style figure (and also costs 10 less points) if you're in the market in something to fill that role since his Overextend lets you get the big move still where it counts, he can bust open a screen and get to the priority target over the two turns on one OM instead of needing two, and throw two sets of 5 dice if he needs/wants to (and the 5-dice attacks can benefit from height) - and also doesn't carry the somewhat fiddly movement restriction to get his 5 attack dice, which the opponent can also often play around by positioning their valuable targets exactly 3 spaces away. I was intentionally trying not to power-creep Alastair with his design, although he does do some things better/differently - Jan is better where SAs are important to have, and his 8 move every turn instead of just once per round can be stronger in some cases (and Evasive, but he trades that off partially for being a much bigger figure and easier to target-spot with ranged attacks), but I felt like consistently he's weaker - and the stronger Knight builds rarely run even Alastair barring something like a low figure count event from what I understand. I also did give some consideration to what I think is a fairly more conservative price of 130 points rather than 120 - at which point I don't think there's much argument any more that he can be as good as Alastair even - so that is an adjustment I have in my back pocket for future if the reception at 120 isn't good.
Kafnirra in Knights builds also pay a fairly high additional points tax for including her, since you're paying for the value of her Totem ability that you can't use on your Knights (specifically she also has a low range value to not be able to hide safely far behind a block of Knights and snipe). I think she can still have some decent value with Knights in melee VS melee games, kind of like an expensive & slower/less-range Me-Burq-Sa, but ranged units can target her down from behind Knights and can pretty much always outrange her barring a handful of squads like Teeth of the Makwa (again, intentional). I kinda wanted her to feel in a similar place to Hrognak with Knights, in that you can do it but it's not gonna be the "best" competitive choice - and she also doesn't bring the extra movement utility or anything to Knights that he does for your Gruts.
She's decently good at sniping off low-defence melee figures but you're sacrificing a Gilbert move every time you use her which can be really bad - I mostly found that you wanna use Gilbert so much that it can be tough to even get her into a good position without sacrificing a lot of potential development, so when you bring her into the fight in the midgame she often won't have height on the targets either. Like Jan, she also is tough to fit in points-wise with Gilbert as well, and while I think there are some options without Gilbert for a sort of "slow-roll" build where you just turtle the Knights and ping with her it def. feels a lot worse than with Gilbert (4 move is just so slow especially at getting over any sort of height). Even lower-attack range figures like Mohicans I found did not have a terrible time sniping her off since she can only fire back within 4 spaces and if you're using her and not Gilbert the Knights can only move up four figures 4 and have a much harder time threatening whatever ranged unit it is back.
I think Alastair is generally the better option in terms of a Knight-bonding "can-opener" style figure (and also costs 10 less points) if you're in the market in something to fill that role since his Overextend lets you get the big move still where it counts, he can bust open a screen and get to the priority target over the two turns on one OM instead of needing two, and throw two sets of 5 dice if he needs/wants to (and the 5-dice attacks can benefit from height) - and also doesn't carry the somewhat fiddly movement restriction to get his 5 attack dice, which the opponent can also often play around by positioning their valuable targets exactly 3 spaces away. I was intentionally trying not to power-creep Alastair with his design, although he does do some things better/differently - Jan is better where SAs are important to have, and his 8 move every turn instead of just once per round can be stronger in some cases (and Evasive, but he trades that off partially for being a much bigger figure and easier to target-spot with ranged attacks), but I felt like consistently he's weaker - and the stronger Knight builds rarely run even Alastair barring something like a low figure count event from what I understand. I also did give some consideration to what I think is a fairly more conservative price of 130 points rather than 120 - at which point I don't think there's much argument any more that he can be as good as Alastair even - so that is an adjustment I have in my back pocket for future if the reception at 120 isn't good.
Kafnirra in Knights builds also pay a fairly high additional points tax for including her, since you're paying for the value of her Totem ability that you can't use on your Knights (specifically she also has a low range value to not be able to hide safely far behind a block of Knights and snipe). I think she can still have some decent value with Knights in melee VS melee games, kind of like an expensive & slower/less-range Me-Burq-Sa, but ranged units can target her down from behind Knights and can pretty much always outrange her barring a handful of squads like Teeth of the Makwa (again, intentional). I kinda wanted her to feel in a similar place to Hrognak with Knights, in that you can do it but it's not gonna be the "best" competitive choice - and she also doesn't bring the extra movement utility or anything to Knights that he does for your Gruts.
She's decently good at sniping off low-defence melee figures but you're sacrificing a Gilbert move every time you use her which can be really bad - I mostly found that you wanna use Gilbert so much that it can be tough to even get her into a good position without sacrificing a lot of potential development, so when you bring her into the fight in the midgame she often won't have height on the targets either. Like Jan, she also is tough to fit in points-wise with Gilbert as well, and while I think there are some options without Gilbert for a sort of "slow-roll" build where you just turtle the Knights and ping with her it def. feels a lot worse than with Gilbert (4 move is just so slow especially at getting over any sort of height). Even lower-attack range figures like Mohicans I found did not have a terrible time sniping her off since she can only fire back within 4 spaces and if you're using her and not Gilbert the Knights can only move up four figures 4 and have a much harder time threatening whatever ranged unit it is back.
to review Annhunhounds. I'm not thrilled by the availability, but Paizo still selling them on their site is a good sign. Other Judges may feel differently. The design is solid. to review Jan Sobieski. We have plenty of Human Champions, but Jan feels different than the support-focused ones we usually get. I suspect the design would be better toned down, with lower stats and a lower price to use as a quick-strike vanguard or assassin unit. As-is he needs to provide significant value after using his Charge to be worth the points and I doubt he can, but I'm willing to give him a fair shake.
to review Kafnirra. Multi-attacking heroes are really, really good bonding with a strong squad. Ranged heroes are really, really good bonding with a strong squad. This is both. The short range certainly helps (but feels odd), but a good player can maximize units like this is terrifying ways. I don't even care if she's balanced; a squad like Knights should not have a ranged bonding option. Being forced to be all melee is one of their few weak points.Shadowking
Active member
I am not entirely familiar with the timeline of different VC members and who participated in creating which specific units etc; just interested to know if you personally would you say the same about Hrognak if we pretended he didn't exist and was being submitted to SoV now? Not being as tanky, a multi-attacker (even if Kafnirra has to be engaged for it) or a 3-dice attacker is less powerful in those aspects for sure (of course, as a trade-off he's also a decent bit cheaper and gives a decently strong passive buff even when not activating him); mostly just curious about the "I don't even care if she's balanced; a squad like Knights should not have a ranged bonding option." part because I would have figured that to apply to Heavies just as much as Knights - at least, assuming the premise applies to either for a person. I'm not trying to do like a "gotcha" or anything, just trying to understand where you fall in the differences in concept between her and Hrognak (if indeed there are any). I do agree with you on the premise that Knights shouldn't get access to a hyper-efficient ranged bonder; that was part of why I aimed her at trying to be generally overcosted/not as good to bring with Knights as MacDirks or Dreadguls despite it still being a potential option.
Heavies are a different thing, and not as strong of a screen as Knights. They get more from their ability to disengage and get improved positioning. Knights are a screen without a ranged attacker to bond with. They are tanky, solid combatants that are really deadly to try to slip past. They do rely heavily on Gilbert to get into combat (another weakness), but once they get there they can hold out well. That's where things can get congested and they are unable to press with their full might alongside a hero, but that's remedied by an archer who can shoot over them.
MacDirks? Yeah, I'd be ok with that bonding. As a screen they are paper. Dreadguls? They are also offensively-focused. While both would obviously benefit from a ranged bonder, it's not a naturally amazing pairing.
Shadowking
Active member
OK, yeah, where you're coming from does make sense; I didn't find it to be quite as big of a deal when I was playing - most of the good melee actually felt like it has a reasonable answer/response in a lot of cases because of her limited range, unless you're really pushing to keep her forward and surrounded at all times by Knights at the cost of attacks and Gilbert activations (it's often difficult to keep the Knights funneling up consistently *and* get good use from her at the same time); Heavies can Chomp and Disengage to get at her, Romans can just grind with bigger numbers/outrange with MBS, I didn't play Axegrinders but with 6 move they also seem like they could out-position her to some degree, although Coward's Reward does probably hurt there - and the various ranged can outrange her and gun for her first if they wish. I think the biggest difference is usually the extra attack dice she gets compared to Hrognak, since Grimnak and/or Nerak are often enabling the Heavies to also have the Knight statline with the 4 defence to make them equally as tanky as a screen (though you do pay the 30 additional points for that, it does give her a better chance of punching through stuff).
They are good thoughts though; if all the other judges also give her a poor reception I think there are ways I can look at tweaking the card for sure, I just felt that given a Wild Human Champion comes with the inherent ability to bond with Knights whether that is the main goal of the design or not, it was more interesting to do something interesting for them (that also paid a sort of "points inefficiency tax"/had other stuff to make it try not to be the kind of option that was crazy good for them) that still could offer some useful utility but was more focused on supporting the other two squads. There are certainly ways to still do that (or to just generally embrace the nature of a more MacDirk/Dreadgul-focused hero) without *requiring* a ranged attacker specifically though.
They are good thoughts though; if all the other judges also give her a poor reception I think there are ways I can look at tweaking the card for sure, I just felt that given a Wild Human Champion comes with the inherent ability to bond with Knights whether that is the main goal of the design or not, it was more interesting to do something interesting for them (that also paid a sort of "points inefficiency tax"/had other stuff to make it try not to be the kind of option that was crazy good for them) that still could offer some useful utility but was more focused on supporting the other two squads. There are certainly ways to still do that (or to just generally embrace the nature of a more MacDirk/Dreadgul-focused hero) without *requiring* a ranged attacker specifically though.
Thanks, I might be getting some playtesting assistance from @chas and @ThrasherDarkrai in the summer, so we'll see how it goes.
Blue Trails
Guest
Yeah; the availability is unfortunate. I've reached out to Paizo, Inc., to see if I can ascertain the exact number of Deep Cuts Hell Hounds they have in stock, but I haven't yet received a response. I'll keep you guys in the SoV apprised of the situation.
Annunhounds Submission: Since the Pre-SoV thread you've changed the species from Psychopomp to Spirit. There is still very little to connect the designed card with the source material. I'm reading a card that is a generic, ghostly, hunting wolfpack. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does not match your source material and that's a big problem for me.
I, probably more than my fellow judges, care a lot about the design process and the intent behind a submission. I care how well a stated intent is carried through a design to the final submission. If you set out with goal "A" (Psychopomp / Cwn Annwn) in mind and come out with a good design for "B" (Ghostly wolfpack). That's great! It just means you aren't done. Now you start the process again with goal "B" in mind, and through this second process you'll (likely) get to a better end result.
If you're submitting a design that represents the Cwn Annwn, I'm voting to not review because this design doesn't represent them well. There is nothing on the Army Card about "serving both to usher the newly deceased to the afterlife and to pursue and torment the wicked souls they encounter." If you're submitting a spectral wolfpack, I'm voting to not review because it doesn't match your design intent, even though it is a good design for a spectral wolfpack. And if you're trying to do both, I'm voting to not review because the design isn't focused.
I vote to review the Annunhounds.
I'm also curious as to where the name Annunhounds comes from. I thought it was a reference to Annund the region of Valhalla where Vydar's manor is located. But now that I see they're from Feylund, I doubt that's the case. Assuming that this design does not get reviewed in its current state, and you want to pursue goal "B", I'd suggest making them Undead, from Valhalla, following Vydar, and call them Annundhounds. That would put them in a similar space as the Banshees of Durgeth Swamp aand the Shades of Bleakewood, lore wise. If you want to pursue goal "A" I think the hunter synergy isn't the correct direction.
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Jan Sobieski Submission: I agree with Scytale's assessment. I don't expect him to provide 120 points worth of value in a role that overlaps so much with Alastair's role. I don't find anything too problematic. The photograph of him with the Knights of Weston makes me think that the mini might fell better as an Einar unit. Willing to give him a go.
I vote to review Jan Sobieski.
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Kafnirra Submission: Should the Knights of Weston have a good ranged bonding hero? No. Should the Knights of Weston have a good multi-special-attacking bonding hero? Also no. Because the KoW exist, this design is put in a tough spot and I think you've made some sub-par design choices in order to lower the power she has with the KoW. In a world without the KoW, her range should really be 5, 6 or 7, not 4. I also don't think she has enough Life to make Guardian Totem worth it. 2 defense MacDirks are probably taking more than one wound when they die. So she probably doesn't get to save 4 of them anyways.
If you fix the above, I'd like her with Dreadguls and MacDirks. I wonder if there is any kind of anti-synergy power that would disallow bonding with the Knights of Weston. Similar to the Dividers, Groks, and Havechs anti-synergy with the Marro Hive. Something like
I don't know how I feel about a power like this, let alone how other judges might feel. But it might be the only way to get MacDirks a ranged bonding hero like Kafnirra.
I vote to review Kafnirra.
I, probably more than my fellow judges, care a lot about the design process and the intent behind a submission. I care how well a stated intent is carried through a design to the final submission. If you set out with goal "A" (Psychopomp / Cwn Annwn) in mind and come out with a good design for "B" (Ghostly wolfpack). That's great! It just means you aren't done. Now you start the process again with goal "B" in mind, and through this second process you'll (likely) get to a better end result.
If you're submitting a design that represents the Cwn Annwn, I'm voting to not review because this design doesn't represent them well. There is nothing on the Army Card about "serving both to usher the newly deceased to the afterlife and to pursue and torment the wicked souls they encounter." If you're submitting a spectral wolfpack, I'm voting to not review because it doesn't match your design intent, even though it is a good design for a spectral wolfpack. And if you're trying to do both, I'm voting to not review because the design isn't focused.
I vote
to review the Annunhounds.I'm also curious as to where the name Annunhounds comes from. I thought it was a reference to Annund the region of Valhalla where Vydar's manor is located. But now that I see they're from Feylund, I doubt that's the case. Assuming that this design does not get reviewed in its current state, and you want to pursue goal "B", I'd suggest making them Undead, from Valhalla, following Vydar, and call them Annundhounds. That would put them in a similar space as the Banshees of Durgeth Swamp aand the Shades of Bleakewood, lore wise. If you want to pursue goal "A" I think the hunter synergy isn't the correct direction.
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Jan Sobieski Submission: I agree with Scytale's assessment. I don't expect him to provide 120 points worth of value in a role that overlaps so much with Alastair's role. I don't find anything too problematic. The photograph of him with the Knights of Weston makes me think that the mini might fell better as an Einar unit. Willing to give him a go.
I vote
to review Jan Sobieski.----------
Kafnirra Submission: Should the Knights of Weston have a good ranged bonding hero? No. Should the Knights of Weston have a good multi-special-attacking bonding hero? Also no. Because the KoW exist, this design is put in a tough spot and I think you've made some sub-par design choices in order to lower the power she has with the KoW. In a world without the KoW, her range should really be 5, 6 or 7, not 4. I also don't think she has enough Life to make Guardian Totem worth it. 2 defense MacDirks are probably taking more than one wound when they die. So she probably doesn't get to save 4 of them anyways.
If you fix the above, I'd like her with Dreadguls and MacDirks. I wonder if there is any kind of anti-synergy power that would disallow bonding with the Knights of Weston. Similar to the Dividers, Groks, and Havechs anti-synergy with the Marro Hive. Something like
I don't know how I feel about a power like this, let alone how other judges might feel. But it might be the only way to get MacDirks a ranged bonding hero like Kafnirra.
I vote
to review Kafnirra.Blue Trails
Guest
Annunhounds Submission: Since the Pre-SoV thread you've changed the species from Psychopomp to Spirit. There is still very little to connect the designed card with the source material. I'm reading a card that is a generic, ghostly, hunting wolfpack. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does not match your source material and that's a big problem for me.
I, probably more than my fellow judges, care a lot about the design process and the intent behind a submission. I care how well a stated intent is carried through a design to the final submission. If you set out with goal "A" (Psychopomp / Cwn Annwn) in mind and come out with a good design for "B" (Ghostly wolfpack). That's great! It just means you aren't done. Now you start the process again with goal "B" in mind, and through this second process you'll (likely) get to a better end result.
If you're submitting a design that represents the Cwn Annwn, I'm voting to not review because this design doesn't represent them well. There is nothing on the Army Card about "serving both to usher the newly deceased to the afterlife and to pursue and torment the wicked souls they encounter." If you're submitting a spectral wolfpack, I'm voting to not review because it doesn't match your design intent, even though it is a good design for a spectral wolfpack. And if you're trying to do both, I'm voting to not review because the design isn't focused.
I vote
That's fair; I really appreciate your candor and respect your justifiably high standards. If I may, though, I think I should address the apparent conflict you've named between the Annunhounds' identity as spectral hounds and as Wild Hunt psychopomps. In fact, I should apologize, as this implies that I have emphasized the wrong parts of the unit's source material in my explanations.
It's true that the Cŵn Annwn participate in the Wild Hunt and guide mortal souls, but they aren't restricted to the actions of psychopomps and they certainly aren't the same thing as a traditional Grim Reaper figure. That would be their owner, whose identity varies across tales but who is generally an inhabitant or ruler of Annwn, the Welsh domain of the gods. Instead, the Cŵn Annwn are first and foremost deities' hunting dogs and are released to chase ordinary game as well as the deceased. This behavior manifests in folklore ranging from early Welsh oral tradition, namely a tale in which a mortal hero interrupts the king of Annwn's deer hunt, to Wild Hunt stories, in which the Cŵn Annwn chase the souls of the wicked to exhaustion to aid in their collection by the leader of the hunt. It also means that the Cŵn Annwn are inseparable from hunting traditions and primarily act as soul ushers only when hunting alongside more powerful psychopomps.
Essentially, hunting is the definitive trait of the Cŵn Annwn; while their arrival can be portentous, and while they do guide some souls to their fates, these factors arise as consequences of their roles as hounds for the gods. It's entirely possible that the design is still weak or unfocused, but I don't think that a choice between Hunter synergy and Cŵn Annwn / Wild Hunt themes can be made without misrepresenting its basis. After all, if there's one thing a 7M/4D squad with Phantom Walk can do, that thing is chasing and tying down retreating or vulnerable cheerleaders and ranged pieces to help more powerful Hunters find attack opportunities.
The name "Annunhounds" is directly adapted from the name of the mythical creature that inspired the unit. "Cŵn Annwn" translates to "hounds of Annwn." The order of words is then swapped to more closely resemble real dog breeds, and the spelling is altered to suit classic Heroscape's treatment of words that would be unintuitive or difficult for its original target audience to pronounce; think of Niflheim, the frozen realm of Norse myth, becoming Nilfheim, the ice-breathing dragon king, or Duamutef, the jackal-headed Egyptian protector of canopic jars, becoming the Dumutef Guard, the bestial, werewolf-like guardian).
That said, the Annund/Vydar thread is brilliant, as it ties the Annunhounds to classic and VC 'Scape while retaining a cosmetic—though coincidental— resemblance to their mythical inspiration. Although I think that Undead is a somewhat inappropriate Species here, I would seriously consider adding the rest of the ideas you mentioned to the Annunhounds' card if it fails the SoV process.
Agrith-Naar by @Sir Heroscape
Time for Agrith-Naar to return to the battlefield, as hungry as ever.
Balance
Balance-wise this version of Agrith-Naar is similar to its previous incarnation, which I discussed in detail in my prior review. Whirlwind Attack of 5 on a flier? Yikes. Solid Life and Defense too, though he absolutely needs to get in the fray, moreso than before, and 3 Defense doesn't hold out all that long under assault.
What's difficult here is pricing with and without Acolytes of Vorganund, as this version of Agrith is very different with and without them. Without the Acolytes he's essentially down a couple of Life points (or you choose to kill your own units to feed him, which is also a notable cost), which is a very big deal. I don't think I'd take Agrith-Naar by himself in a normal format at 125pts (though, notably, Heat of Battle is great for the big demon).
Theme
Big, hungry-looking, crazed demon with lots of arms holding blades that attacks everything near him and needs to keep eating. It's a simple picture that works well, and everything on the card plays to that theme.
Creativity
The creativity is in the simplicity: how to create a unit with crazy offensive power and good stats but doesn't feel like an army-in-a-box and definitely has weaknesses. Everything on the card is part of who Agrith is and is necessary to the design.
Playability
My issue with the previous incarnation was the uneven and unnecessary tension between attacking power and self-wound potential. This version goes in the opposite direction, aligning the two directly. Now he essentially gets double-rewarded for diving into the fray; not only will he get off lots of powerful attacks, but he'll likely avoid going hungry.
The tension comes in getting him into position. If you have to take turns moving him up, you either need to tear into your own figures or let the ravenous one starve. Neither is a good choice, and that usually ends up meaning Agrith is only a 4 Life or so figure. Obviously this problem goes away completely when summoned by the Acolytes of Vorganund. It's so valuable, in fact, I don't think think Agrith is especially viable in most types of games without the cultists to summon him on the front lines.
What he is then, mainly, is a Bound Hero with Whirlwind Attack of 5 and Flying. That's seriously nuts for a bonding hero. The thing is, the Acolytes of Vorganund aren't particularly good outside of summoning. Agrith probably won't cause them blowback with Dark Pact (though if he does fail to kill something, both Starved and Dark Pact activate, which feels like double-dipping and is a knock against the design), but otherwise they're pretty mediocre. If Agrith-Naar could bond with a strong squad he'd be ridiculously good, but the Acolytes don't boost him a lot after he's on the battlefield.
Summary
Agrith is ferocious as the stats suggest, and troublesome to try to swarm because of the damage he inflicts on his turns. But Starved holds him back as a solo hero, and while the Acolytes help to negate his positioning cost, they aren't all that great otherwise. It feels like Agrith is barely worth 125 points alone in most game styles and almost too cheap at 125 points with Acolytes or in Heat of Battle. But both are workable, so I guess the price is right.
I vote Yea to induct Agrith-Naar into the SoV.
Time for Agrith-Naar to return to the battlefield, as hungry as ever.
Balance
Balance-wise this version of Agrith-Naar is similar to its previous incarnation, which I discussed in detail in my prior review. Whirlwind Attack of 5 on a flier? Yikes. Solid Life and Defense too, though he absolutely needs to get in the fray, moreso than before, and 3 Defense doesn't hold out all that long under assault.
What's difficult here is pricing with and without Acolytes of Vorganund, as this version of Agrith is very different with and without them. Without the Acolytes he's essentially down a couple of Life points (or you choose to kill your own units to feed him, which is also a notable cost), which is a very big deal. I don't think I'd take Agrith-Naar by himself in a normal format at 125pts (though, notably, Heat of Battle is great for the big demon).
Theme
Big, hungry-looking, crazed demon with lots of arms holding blades that attacks everything near him and needs to keep eating. It's a simple picture that works well, and everything on the card plays to that theme.
Creativity
The creativity is in the simplicity: how to create a unit with crazy offensive power and good stats but doesn't feel like an army-in-a-box and definitely has weaknesses. Everything on the card is part of who Agrith is and is necessary to the design.
Playability
My issue with the previous incarnation was the uneven and unnecessary tension between attacking power and self-wound potential. This version goes in the opposite direction, aligning the two directly. Now he essentially gets double-rewarded for diving into the fray; not only will he get off lots of powerful attacks, but he'll likely avoid going hungry.
The tension comes in getting him into position. If you have to take turns moving him up, you either need to tear into your own figures or let the ravenous one starve. Neither is a good choice, and that usually ends up meaning Agrith is only a 4 Life or so figure. Obviously this problem goes away completely when summoned by the Acolytes of Vorganund. It's so valuable, in fact, I don't think think Agrith is especially viable in most types of games without the cultists to summon him on the front lines.
What he is then, mainly, is a Bound Hero with Whirlwind Attack of 5 and Flying. That's seriously nuts for a bonding hero. The thing is, the Acolytes of Vorganund aren't particularly good outside of summoning. Agrith probably won't cause them blowback with Dark Pact (though if he does fail to kill something, both Starved and Dark Pact activate, which feels like double-dipping and is a knock against the design), but otherwise they're pretty mediocre. If Agrith-Naar could bond with a strong squad he'd be ridiculously good, but the Acolytes don't boost him a lot after he's on the battlefield.
Summary
Agrith is ferocious as the stats suggest, and troublesome to try to swarm because of the damage he inflicts on his turns. But Starved holds him back as a solo hero, and while the Acolytes help to negate his positioning cost, they aren't all that great otherwise. It feels like Agrith is barely worth 125 points alone in most game styles and almost too cheap at 125 points with Acolytes or in Heat of Battle. But both are workable, so I guess the price is right.
I vote Yea to induct Agrith-Naar into the SoV.
Vote Times
on Annunhounds. Availability concerns me. I have some play concerns with one of their best Hunter options (Himmelskralle is likely going to find that bonding very constraining; not sure if that's a good or a bad thing but it makes me hesitate). Lastly, I don't really think this design fits the mythical Cwn Annwn they're supposed to be inspired by. Cwn Annwn having red in their design is a big part of the myth (I understand we're constrained by minis), but also the hunting ability just feels very generic with a slight twist and not anything that reads to me the theme of the spectral hunting dogs associated with death or the Wild Hunt. From what I can find those that owned the dogs mostly just sent the dogs to do things without wandering into the fray themselves which makes bonding feel weird to me here.
on Jan Sobieski
Unit is really close. I think this should be an Einar unit both based on the historical record and the figure. I think the design has some good features but I don't think it really knows what it wants to be doing. It wants to stay safe from range until it can hit targets up close but it kind of becomes useless once it gets stuck there. Some kind of tactical disengage like Sir Dupuis or beefier overall stats like Valguard (or just retooling into an assassin type figure like Scytale suggested but I think that's less true to the historical record) instead of Evasive would do a lot to make this unit work. I know these things would bug me in the final review and I'd rather vote a unit down now than have it go through a long process to get a no.
on Kafnirra
Vydar and Scytale detailed why the unit as is is a no go. I've seen knights played with a ranged component that doesn't bond with them. It was very good. If they can bond with the figure it's very very good. The only way to make this work is some kind of anti Knight power and I am on the fence as to whether or not I like something like what Vydar suggested. But as it is now I'm going to say no.
I will say that I think all of these units could be made into something very good and interesting but I don't think they're quite there yet.
~Dysole, who will note to all designers that she's trying to be conscientious of all the little design pieces and if any of them are going to bug her throughout the process so she can speak up about them now
on Annunhounds. Availability concerns me. I have some play concerns with one of their best Hunter options (Himmelskralle is likely going to find that bonding very constraining; not sure if that's a good or a bad thing but it makes me hesitate). Lastly, I don't really think this design fits the mythical Cwn Annwn they're supposed to be inspired by. Cwn Annwn having red in their design is a big part of the myth (I understand we're constrained by minis), but also the hunting ability just feels very generic with a slight twist and not anything that reads to me the theme of the spectral hunting dogs associated with death or the Wild Hunt. From what I can find those that owned the dogs mostly just sent the dogs to do things without wandering into the fray themselves which makes bonding feel weird to me here. on Jan Sobieski Unit is really close. I think this should be an Einar unit both based on the historical record and the figure. I think the design has some good features but I don't think it really knows what it wants to be doing. It wants to stay safe from range until it can hit targets up close but it kind of becomes useless once it gets stuck there. Some kind of tactical disengage like Sir Dupuis or beefier overall stats like Valguard (or just retooling into an assassin type figure like Scytale suggested but I think that's less true to the historical record) instead of Evasive would do a lot to make this unit work. I know these things would bug me in the final review and I'd rather vote a unit down now than have it go through a long process to get a no.
on KafnirraVydar and Scytale detailed why the unit as is is a no go. I've seen knights played with a ranged component that doesn't bond with them. It was very good. If they can bond with the figure it's very very good. The only way to make this work is some kind of anti Knight power and I am on the fence as to whether or not I like something like what Vydar suggested. But as it is now I'm going to say no.
I will say that I think all of these units could be made into something very good and interesting but I don't think they're quite there yet.
~Dysole, who will note to all designers that she's trying to be conscientious of all the little design pieces and if any of them are going to bug her throughout the process so she can speak up about them now