Kantono Daishi and the Thoresby Woodsmen have passed the unified fanscape evaluation and will continue in the test phase.
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Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
- Thread starter Scytale
- Start date
My previous review is below--aside from the change in general, most of my concerns are unaddressed by the new version. Although I'm very happy to see Kantono Daishi following Vydar rather than Valkrill, there are still a few gameplay issues that niggle at me.
I vote NAY to induct Kantono Daishi into the SoV.
I vote NAY to induct Kantono Daishi into the SoV.
Tiranx
New member
[/QUOTE]
I feel like your old concerns do not hold as much weight.
1) Humans and Valkrill don't mix: we now have the Nhah Scirh Cultists. They may be Icarians, but I see them as humans on another planet. they are definitely humanoid and unless I missed something in the back story, I see them as virtually the same thing.
2) Dashi is too powerful as an end game commander: You use Ulginesh and Kurrock as your examples, but you neglect to compare him to Kato and the newly released Deathcommander Mark 3. If I was to choose a better end game commander I would definitely go with a ranged figure with a special attack, than a figure with counterstrike.
I respect your opinion, but feel that you are ignoring newly released and now canonical figures.
As far as Valkrill is concerned, I have come around a little--I might be able to see a really crazy, chaotic human following Valkrill. Maybe. But the Icarians don't affect my opinion at all--they're not human, and although they are humanoid, they are obviously pretty weird.
I am not ignoring Kato or Deathcommander Mark 3. I have actually thought about (and even discussed elsewhere, privately), both of them.
Although Kato is a sturdy 4/4 with 5 life, he does not have Counterstrike and he is 200 points.
Deathcommander Mark 3 is only a semi-commander--he does not activate more than one other army card, so he is really more like a gimmicky bonding hero than a commander. I might be the only person who defines a "commander" as a figure that can activate at least two other Army Cards, but that's how I was defining it for this conversation.
For the sake of argument, we'll pretend that DCM3 is the same kind of commander as Daishi, though.
I'll agree that DCM3 has a lot of advantages over Daishi. That ranged special multi-attack is pretty good. He also has a fair degree of complexity creep (some might say he has too much complexity creep). I appreciate the relative simplicity of Daishi's powers in comparison to a figure like DCM3.
My concern with Daishi's end-game cleanup effectiveness have to do with a very specific scenario that does not always come up--the endgame against melee figures with lower attacks (typically squad figures, which also have only 1 life) where Daishi can Phantom Walk his way to the highest ground and make them come attack his 6def + counterstrike.
If I had 4 Knights of Weston left at the end of the game and had to choose to go up against DCM3 or Daishi on height I'll admit that choice would be pretty tough. But it's not a question for me of whether or not there is a better commander for every endgame situation (or even that same endgame situation), the question for me is whether or not I'd like to add another one. And for me, the answer at this point is 'No.'
As I believe I said in my review, I don't think it's game breaking, but I would prefer it to be watered down a bit before adding him to the canon.
My personal opinion is that the design would be much more interesting with 3 attack and 4 defense. That would slightly ameliorate my endgame concerns while also providing some incentive to occasionally risk a melee attack using Daishi. But that's just one way of addressing it.
Thanks for your post, Tiranx.
Sir Yeshua
New member
Uhhh... Tiranx? Caps mentioned that he likes Dashi better with Vydar, (Dashi's new General), but it's gameplay that he is concerned about.
Also, he did compare Dashi to Kato:
If Dashi should fail to be inducted again, I think all qt.bangerang or Tiranx would need to do is lower his defense to 4. I think that would be reasonable.
Also, he did compare Dashi to Kato:
The Deathcommander Mk. 3 plays very differently from all of the "general" units, as he must be on the front lines to move other units. DCM3 also has a bit of a glass jaw, with 7 defense and 2 life. In my mind, there is no comparison between DCM3 and Dashi.
If Dashi should fail to be inducted again, I think all qt.bangerang or Tiranx would need to do is lower his defense to 4. I think that would be reasonable.
I similarly have no major issues with the resubmit of Daishi.
I maintain my vote of YES to induct Daishi into the SoV.
Sir Yeshua;1807724[I said:
I'm not so sure that would work. Not all judges feel the same about a unit, and I for one feel that 2/5 is spot on (for various reasons). Changing his stats to 3/4 would likely ruin the design for me, and even just dropping his defense to 4 is likely sway my opinion negatively.
Sir Yeshua
New member
Huh, go figure. I guess you can't please everyone.
Honestly, I like him just as he is. I hope you guys can get him inducted soon.
Kantono Daishi has received 4 Yeas votes for induction into the Soldiers of Valhalla and moves on in the process.
Sir Yeshua
New member
Hooray! 
If there's one thing you learn working in a collaborative project like Valhalla Customs, it's that you definitely can't please everybody.
Huh, go figure. I guess you can't please everyone.
Honestly, I like him just as he is. I hope you guys can get him inducted soon.
Lynovas seems thematically disjointed so I will vote 
to review.
to review.
Yeah, you need 5 Yeas to pass onto unified fanscape evaluation, but I also want to allow Scytale and 1Mmirg to vote.
cornhusker36
New member
So is Daishi official? 4 Yes votes and pasted the sanctum review.
superfrog
This is merely a joke.
Kantono Daishi is in finalization (i.e. editing and art). So yes and no.
Not yet. There was a change in the C3V/SoV agreement that created an earlier Sanctum review, so that the SoV judges would not test units that the C3V did not find canonical. Daishi has passed that review, but not the final unified fanscape review. While he's such an exception to every rule we have, we still are running him through the same process we do everything else.
'd
'd
An off-character personality like Merciful should be justified by its backstory, not the other way around. As it is it's a disjoint in the overall picture.
to review Lynovas
Sundol by vegietarian18
Sundol is bigger, hits harder, and has a wider blast radius than Heroscape's official walking bomb, Deathwalker 7000. And thankfully is more effective.
Balance
In terms of raw stats, vegietarian18's fire giant isn't all that great. Five attack is certainly enough to do some damage, even though he's limited to one normal attack per activation. Three defense is average (on the weak side of average) but 6 life is pretty nice. The numbers seem ok, but not for 130 points. Crixus provides about the same for a nice 90 points, and of course there's Alastair at 110. Sundol does get some large size immunities and lava resistance, but that doesn't quite match up to the Inspiration Crixus can get from Spartacus or Alastair's very useful Overextend.
As one would expect a fair portion of Sundol's worth is in Blaze of Glory, a potentially devastating self-detonation. If things work out just right his blast will damage about 1/3rd of all figures within a huge 5-space radius. While it can only inflict 1 wound, that is enough to obliterate squads. The potential here is huge, but it requires not just good play but a whole lot of luck to get even a moderately destructive blast. It also has the drawback of being as bad for your units as your opponents'.
Theme
A big firey giant that goes out in a massive blaze? Sweet. Bonds with the Dreadguls? Sure.
The only real issue I have with the unit is the figure itself. We already have a fire giant, Shurrak, who doesn't look anything like Sundol. While Sundol looks more like a 4th Ed D&D fire giant than Shurrak does (Shurrak was based on 3rd Ed), the disjoint bugs me. However, according to vegietarian18 he is a Valhallan giant, not a D&D one. Wildly differently-looking creatures with the same Species already exist (Gurei-Oni and the D&D Ogres), so this guy gets a pass.
Creativity
The design is fairly straightforward, though Blaze of Glory is (necessarily) wordy. Basing the radius of the blast on the amount of damage Sundol has taken was an excellent decision; it enhances the risk/reward aspect of the unit and adds a fair bit of tension.
Playability
Sundol has one obvious use: rush forward, smack some things, and blow up. This is a result of the one basic rule with Sundol: when it's time to blow up, be close to as many enemy figures as possible and far away from your own figures. At this he is pretty good, as he has both the life/defense to survive the run and the attacking power to knock down the stuff in his path. If all goes well, you'll have him standing badly wounded just outside your opponent's starting zone.
Of course, things rarely (if ever) go so well. The first problem is that, while 6 life 3 defense is decent, it often doesn't keep him alive for long on a suicide run. On top of that, you don't want to blow Sundol if he has 3 or less wounds. You almost need to push him to the edge, even though there's only a 1 die difference between 5 wounds and death. Result: he often dies before you get a chance to use Blaze of Glory, and you'll find yourself wishing you had put the 130pts elsewhere. The other big problem with the suicide run is that a smart opponent will make it very difficult to do that. Even if you are willing to take a few disengagement attacks (and you should), a small vanguard force can really get in the way and make the run much longer.
Pairing him with the Dreadgul Raiders works quite well. The Dreadguls are pretty poor at a disciplined slow-roll due to Beserker Charge and really just want to sprint to the enemy. Your advance Dreadgul force can provide Sundol a little cover and help to clear out some of the rabble your opponent might send to get in his way. Sure, they'll get caught in the blast, but you should have at most three of them in the area at the time. Best of all, you don't have the risk of losing order markers when Sundol dies as your order markers are on the Dreadguls.
Playing Sundol in a multiplayer free for all isn't as fun as it sounds. It can be hard enough to time Blaze of Glory when you only have one opponent; when two or more other players put Sundol in their sights he's probably dead.
Sundol doesn't work particularly well in other formats either. Formats like Heroes Only, Uniques Only, and dungeon crawls tend to be focused around heroes, which aren't as threatened by Blaze of Glory. Sundol can be fun in Heat of Battle in the right conditions. While it seems like he would provide a nice big heavy-hitter to a Heat of Battle firestorm, in practice a turn with Sundol is rarely ever better than even a single turn with a Fire Elemental, much less three.
One can play Sundol more conservatively, mixing him with Dreadguls and other wild heroes and using him mainly for his stats. That will give you more consistent and generally not terrible results. But in that role he's simply overpriced.
Overall the price is about right. Sure, he can take out a lot of squaddies with Blaze of Glory (I think my record was 11 Marro Dividers), but he's more likely to fizzle than blaze. 130pts is low enough to take the gamble in the occasional casual draft.
Summary
Sundol does one thing and does it rather well, if you're lucky. He's certainly exciting to have on the battlefield, whether you're playing with or against him. The tension the unit creates is definitely the funnest thing about the design. While I felt that Sundol was somewhat lacking in strategic versatility (he really only shines as a suicide runner), the tension his presence creates makes up for that. He's far too unreliable to appear in winning tournament armies, but he's fun enough to toss in from time to time.
I vote
to induct Sundol into the SoV.
Sundol is bigger, hits harder, and has a wider blast radius than Heroscape's official walking bomb, Deathwalker 7000. And thankfully is more effective.
Balance
In terms of raw stats, vegietarian18's fire giant isn't all that great. Five attack is certainly enough to do some damage, even though he's limited to one normal attack per activation. Three defense is average (on the weak side of average) but 6 life is pretty nice. The numbers seem ok, but not for 130 points. Crixus provides about the same for a nice 90 points, and of course there's Alastair at 110. Sundol does get some large size immunities and lava resistance, but that doesn't quite match up to the Inspiration Crixus can get from Spartacus or Alastair's very useful Overextend.
As one would expect a fair portion of Sundol's worth is in Blaze of Glory, a potentially devastating self-detonation. If things work out just right his blast will damage about 1/3rd of all figures within a huge 5-space radius. While it can only inflict 1 wound, that is enough to obliterate squads. The potential here is huge, but it requires not just good play but a whole lot of luck to get even a moderately destructive blast. It also has the drawback of being as bad for your units as your opponents'.
Theme
A big firey giant that goes out in a massive blaze? Sweet. Bonds with the Dreadguls? Sure.
The only real issue I have with the unit is the figure itself. We already have a fire giant, Shurrak, who doesn't look anything like Sundol. While Sundol looks more like a 4th Ed D&D fire giant than Shurrak does (Shurrak was based on 3rd Ed), the disjoint bugs me. However, according to vegietarian18 he is a Valhallan giant, not a D&D one. Wildly differently-looking creatures with the same Species already exist (Gurei-Oni and the D&D Ogres), so this guy gets a pass.
Creativity
The design is fairly straightforward, though Blaze of Glory is (necessarily) wordy. Basing the radius of the blast on the amount of damage Sundol has taken was an excellent decision; it enhances the risk/reward aspect of the unit and adds a fair bit of tension.
Playability
Sundol has one obvious use: rush forward, smack some things, and blow up. This is a result of the one basic rule with Sundol: when it's time to blow up, be close to as many enemy figures as possible and far away from your own figures. At this he is pretty good, as he has both the life/defense to survive the run and the attacking power to knock down the stuff in his path. If all goes well, you'll have him standing badly wounded just outside your opponent's starting zone.
Of course, things rarely (if ever) go so well. The first problem is that, while 6 life 3 defense is decent, it often doesn't keep him alive for long on a suicide run. On top of that, you don't want to blow Sundol if he has 3 or less wounds. You almost need to push him to the edge, even though there's only a 1 die difference between 5 wounds and death. Result: he often dies before you get a chance to use Blaze of Glory, and you'll find yourself wishing you had put the 130pts elsewhere. The other big problem with the suicide run is that a smart opponent will make it very difficult to do that. Even if you are willing to take a few disengagement attacks (and you should), a small vanguard force can really get in the way and make the run much longer.
Pairing him with the Dreadgul Raiders works quite well. The Dreadguls are pretty poor at a disciplined slow-roll due to Beserker Charge and really just want to sprint to the enemy. Your advance Dreadgul force can provide Sundol a little cover and help to clear out some of the rabble your opponent might send to get in his way. Sure, they'll get caught in the blast, but you should have at most three of them in the area at the time. Best of all, you don't have the risk of losing order markers when Sundol dies as your order markers are on the Dreadguls.
Playing Sundol in a multiplayer free for all isn't as fun as it sounds. It can be hard enough to time Blaze of Glory when you only have one opponent; when two or more other players put Sundol in their sights he's probably dead.
Sundol doesn't work particularly well in other formats either. Formats like Heroes Only, Uniques Only, and dungeon crawls tend to be focused around heroes, which aren't as threatened by Blaze of Glory. Sundol can be fun in Heat of Battle in the right conditions. While it seems like he would provide a nice big heavy-hitter to a Heat of Battle firestorm, in practice a turn with Sundol is rarely ever better than even a single turn with a Fire Elemental, much less three.
One can play Sundol more conservatively, mixing him with Dreadguls and other wild heroes and using him mainly for his stats. That will give you more consistent and generally not terrible results. But in that role he's simply overpriced.
Overall the price is about right. Sure, he can take out a lot of squaddies with Blaze of Glory (I think my record was 11 Marro Dividers), but he's more likely to fizzle than blaze. 130pts is low enough to take the gamble in the occasional casual draft.
Summary
Sundol does one thing and does it rather well, if you're lucky. He's certainly exciting to have on the battlefield, whether you're playing with or against him. The tension the unit creates is definitely the funnest thing about the design. While I felt that Sundol was somewhat lacking in strategic versatility (he really only shines as a suicide runner), the tension his presence creates makes up for that. He's far too unreliable to appear in winning tournament armies, but he's fun enough to toss in from time to time.
I vote
to induct Sundol into the SoV.