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Rules questions to Hasbro

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RoTV Raelin was positioned an equal distance from 2 pieces (both within 4 spaces), yet her back was facing one of the pieces. When I attacked the piece behind her, the player claimed that her aura still benefitted it, since she could "turn around" while I was attacking it.

Two players claimed that her aura covered 360 degrees around Raelin while I argued that it only covered the 180 degrees in front of her. Who is correct?

And if I'm not mistaken, you're allowed to turn your single space figures at any point? Being able to do so would make this a moot point.

I think it is a great question.

In general it is assumed (and played) that you can use the green dot and "wrap it around" the head of a figure. if any point of this "green line" can "see" any part of the target figure, it's within clear sight. On single space figures, body parts are assumed to not block line of sight, but on double spaced figures they do (like Q9's shoulders)

I have always assumed that this was an abstraction of the rule that you can adjust single space figures pretty much in any way you want, so you can have their eyes look the right way. Double space figs you can only "flip-adjust", hence their restrictions. However, no one may adjust their figs on someone else's turn (which it usually is when you are defending) so this does not answer the question at all....

There is another assumption that sometimes get mentioned, which is that figures are not statues, but they actually move, dodge, jump, duck, etc. while on the battle field. That is why you can move "through" unengaged friendlies (you are not moving through litterally, they just step aside a little so you both fit on the same hex while you walk past). In that vein it is understandable that your figs can turn their heads when nescessary, and do so when the situation requires it.

Now, that does invalidate the whole "Q9 cannot move his shoulder pads enough to look past it" argument quite a bit, so I don't know if this explanation is satisfactory for you...

Anyone care to add?
 
Anyone care to add?
I think your quasi-explanation (because that is all anyone could come up with) is the best "bridge" between game-mechanic and reality.

(As a theologian, I am sometimes tempted to say, "It's a mystery." to some rules' conventions.)
 
It seems safe to say that single-spaced units are considered more flexible in terms of game play than double-spaced ones in HS. Maybe Q9 has to drive rods into the ground to stabilize himself to use his mighty guns (like a Veratech or something)--for whatever reason the positioning of double spaced units is more critical and limited (arguably, as a mechanic, to balance out their water movement advantage).

The new FAQ:
If a single space figure is not facing another figure that he is attacking, does he have line of sight?
Facing does not matter when determining Line of Sight for the single spaced figures. The best way to tell if your Attacker has a clear Line of Sight is to get behind its head and look at the targeted figure. If you can see any part of the targeted figures Hit Zone from its head, you have a clear Line of Sight. The facing of the attacker's head does not matter.
With double-space figures, facing does matter, as certain areas of the body may block Line of Sight. Remember that you can flip your figure anytime during a double-space figures move, so keep Line of Sight in mind when you are moving.
 
I think GB has said all that needs to be said on the matter:
They are correct. She can see 360 degrees.
I disagree
It seems safe to say that single-spaced units are considered more flexible in terms of game play than double-spaced ones in HS. Maybe Q9 has to drive rods into the ground to stabilize himself to use his mighty guns (like a Veratech or something)--for whatever reason the positioning of double spaced units is more critical and limited (arguably, as a mechanic, to balance out their water movement advantage).

The new FAQ:
If a single space figure is not facing another figure that he is attacking, does he have line of sight?
Facing does not matter when determining Line of Sight for the single spaced figures. The best way to tell if your Attacker has a clear Line of Sight is to get behind its head and look at the targeted figure. If you can see any part of the targeted figures Hit Zone from its head, you have a clear Line of Sight. The facing of the attacker's head does not matter.
With double-space figures, facing does matter, as certain areas of the body may block Line of Sight. Remember that you can flip your figure anytime during a double-space figures move, so keep Line of Sight in mind when you are moving.
See, there was more!

Thanks, Mmirg, for doing due dilligence in the official faq! Great post!
 
It seems safe to say that single-spaced units are considered more flexible in terms of game play than double-spaced ones in HS. Maybe Q9 has to drive rods into the ground to stabilize himself to use his mighty guns (like a Veratech or something)--for whatever reason the positioning of double spaced units is more critical and limited (arguably, as a mechanic, to balance out their water movement advantage).

The new FAQ:
If a single space figure is not facing another figure that he is attacking, does he have line of sight?
Facing does not matter when determining Line of Sight for the single spaced figures. The best way to tell if your Attacker has a clear Line of Sight is to get behind its head and look at the targeted figure. If you can see any part of the targeted figures Hit Zone from its head, you have a clear Line of Sight. The facing of the attacker's head does not matter.
With double-space figures, facing does matter, as certain areas of the body may block Line of Sight. Remember that you can flip your figure anytime during a double-space figures move, so keep Line of Sight in mind when you are moving.

I find it interesting that the second paragraph strongly implies that Q9 isn't the only one that has problems with LOS and yet no other figure is listed as having limitations in their FAQ section. So are we now to assume that Q10 has a similar issue? What about Zetacron & the pegasus' wings on Ulginesh?
 
It seems safe to say that single-spaced units are considered more flexible in terms of game play than double-spaced ones in HS. Maybe Q9 has to drive rods into the ground to stabilize himself to use his mighty guns (like a Veratech or something)--for whatever reason the positioning of double spaced units is more critical and limited (arguably, as a mechanic, to balance out their water movement advantage).

The new FAQ:
If a single space figure is not facing another figure that he is attacking, does he have line of sight?
Facing does not matter when determining Line of Sight for the single spaced figures. The best way to tell if your Attacker has a clear Line of Sight is to get behind its head and look at the targeted figure. If you can see any part of the targeted figures Hit Zone from its head, you have a clear Line of Sight. The facing of the attacker's head does not matter.
With double-space figures, facing does matter, as certain areas of the body may block Line of Sight. Remember that you can flip your figure anytime during a double-space figures move, so keep Line of Sight in mind when you are moving.

I find it interesting that the second paragraph strongly implies that Q9 isn't the only one that has problems with LOS and yet no other figure is listed as having limitations in their FAQ section. So are we now to assume that Q10 has a similar issue? What about Zetacron & the pegasus' wings on Ulginesh?
Q10 certainly has similar issues as Q9. I remember reading an official Hasbro or WotC reply somewhere (sorry, I do not remember where) that addressed that exact issue, and it said that Q10's vision was blocked, abeit less than Q9's vision.

For wings on dragons (and I assume that goes for wings on pegasi too) I have always assumed they can fold away and do not ever block line of sight. I think we started doing this because of the way Mimring works with his special fire breathing attack... We might be doing that all wrong though (I am actually very much doubting we are right about that now)

I find it very interesting that, according to the FAQ, facing matters to double spaced figs. I was under the impression they still could see 360, but that other parts (not their head) would block vision, but the way it is worded in the faq now leads me to believ 180 vision is it for the double spaced...
 
That is my reading as well, though you could likely argue a bit more than 180 vision if a face space sticks out, but seeing behind you doesn't seem to work for Zetacron, etc.

Now for most (like Zeta) this isn't a problem since he is only attacking a single figure per movement/activation--just place him down appropriately. It is figures like Nilfheim and the Majors that really have to worry about this. Q10 gets a lot of attacks, but if they all have to go in front of him, he is also limited in a way that I had not initially thought.

Here is thread on Nilfheim that may clarify things a bit (from his Book): Facing and Line of Sight? http://www.heroscapers.com/community...read.php?t=446
 
The advanced FAQ seems to imply Q9 has some ability to shoot behind him, though not directly behind.

Here it is:

Can Major Q9’s shoulder pads block his own line of sight? Yes. When checking to see if you have a clear line of sight with Q9, you may want to look behind the targeted figure’s Hit Zone to see if you can see Q9’s head, or the side of his face. He cannot fire directly behind himself.

If the intent was to only allow him a field of vision of approx. 150 degrees or so in front of him (we know his shoulder pads block some peripheral targets), the FAQ could have said that. Instead it says something more limited.
 
I think that is clearly stating that since his face sticks out from his body that he indeed has a full 180 (perhaps a tick more) of vision. The side of his face counts as LOS as well as the front based on that wording. I think anything behind him is out, between the shoulder guards and the not "directly behind himself" comment.
 
I think the rule on double spaced figures may need to be revisited/clarified (or, more likely, I missed a clarifying point).

These rulings are in the Advanced FAQ in the "Movement" section (albeit, not in the "Movement (Double Spaced Figures)" section).

Can I adjust a figure after it attacks in order to make gaining line of sight difficult for my opponent?You can adjust any figure you control on your turn, even after attacking.
Can I adjust any figure I control on my turn even if I’m not taking a turn with that figure?Yes, you can adjust any figure you control on your turn.

my question -
Wouldn't it seem that if you can adjust a figure who is not even active, that you could adjust (or flip) a figure mid-attack?

I guess the question is whether flip = adjust. At this point, I guess they're distinct even though you could adjust a 1 space figure 180 degrees any time during your turn.
 
q9_los2_original.jpg
 
Soul Shackle, you are correct.

This Advanced FAQ actually clarifies things quite a bit (thanks Guru!)

If a single space figure is not facing another figure that he is attacking, does he have line of sight?Facing does not matter when determining Line of Sight for the single spaced figures. The best way to tell if your Attacker has a clear Line of Sight is to get behind its head and look at the targeted figure. If you can see any part of the targeted figures Hit Zone from its head, you have a clear Line of Sight. The facing of the attacker's head does not matter.
With double-space figures, facing does matter, as certain areas of the body may block Line of Sight. Remember that you can flip your figure anytime during a double-space figures move, so keep Line of Sight in mind when you are moving.

PS - I may not like it, but them's the rules.
 
That is my reading as well, though you could likely argue a bit more than 180 vision if a face space sticks out, but seeing behind you doesn't seem to work for Zetacron, etc.

Now for most (like Zeta) this isn't a problem since he is only attacking a single figure per movement/activation--just place him down appropriately. It is figures like Nilfheim and the Majors that really have to worry about this. Q10 gets a lot of attacks, but if they all have to go in front of him, he is also limited in a way that I had not initially thought.

Here is thread on Nilfheim that may clarify things a bit (from his Book): Facing and Line of Sight? http://www.heroscapers.com/community...read.php?t=446
Nilfheim and LOS: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=446

There are some conflicting statements made in that thread, it seems to me. One argument is that for dragons you can use the tip of the horn as LOS dot. The other argument used is that Nilfheim's LOS dot is 360 around his head.

I am inclined to believe (and I will play it like that until someone shows me the error of my ways :lol:) that any figs LOS dot is, in fact, 360, all around his/her head. In case of 1 spacers LOS cannot be blocked by the fig itself, in case of two spacers LOS can be blocked by body parts of the fig itself, but NOT by its own head. The special rule for Mimrings horns is because of his tail blocking LOS to the back, not because of his head not having eyes in the back, and should only be applied to Mimring, not to any other dragon....
 
That was the question that I had. It seems like the 360 vision think may be why Q9's FAQ specifically states he can't see/shoot behind himself. The other dragons have more elevated heads (except Mimring who has other special sighting rules applied).

I have generally played that way--with dragons using 360 vision due to their sculpt. But I'd love to get an official reading of this.

(Thanks Cav for posting the picture, btw!)
 
That is my reading as well, though you could likely argue a bit more than 180 vision if a face space sticks out, but seeing behind you doesn't seem to work for Zetacron, etc.

Now for most (like Zeta) this isn't a problem since he is only attacking a single figure per movement/activation--just place him down appropriately. It is figures like Nilfheim and the Majors that really have to worry about this. Q10 gets a lot of attacks, but if they all have to go in front of him, he is also limited in a way that I had not initially thought.

Here is thread on Nilfheim that may clarify things a bit (from his Book): Facing and Line of Sight? http://www.heroscapers.com/community...read.php?t=446
Nilfheim and LOS: http://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=446

There are some conflicting statements made in that thread, it seems to me. One argument is that for dragons you can use the tip of the horn as LOS dot. The other argument used is that Nilfheim's LOS dot is 360 around his head.

I am inclined to believe (and I will play it like that until someone shows me the error of my ways :lol:) that any figs LOS dot is, in fact, 360, all around his/her head. In case of 1 spacers LOS cannot be blocked by the fig itself, in case of two spacers LOS can be blocked by body parts of the fig itself, but NOT by its own head. The special rule for Mimrings horns is because of his tail blocking LOS to the back, not because of his head not having eyes in the back, and should only be applied to Mimring, not to any other dragon....
Hmm, while I was writing that you guys posted a few good quotes from the FAQ, and now I have to eat my own words. Apparantly double spacers do not have 360 sight... (judging from the ruling that Q9 cannot look directly behind himself) Interesting!

Edit: I just read your reply, MMirg. Your argument is that Q9's back blocks his LOS, right? That actually makes a lot of sense. So the "figs own head does not block LOS (but any other bodypart does)" ruling still seems to be applicable?!
That actually seems like the way to play it...

Edit2: Did that pic really add anything/solve anything that was unclear before? It's a nice picture that adequately describes what's happening with Q9, but that was asked (and answered) a ton of times before. I thought we were debating how we can extrapolate from that to how we ought to play other double spacers? Still, it is a nice picture, I guess
 
All in all, losing the ability to flip and the corresponding 360 field of vision (or something close, allowing for shoulders, wings, etc. that block LOS), seems like a fairly big trade off for being able to cross water.

Especially, since a double base often makes it hard to climb and thus to get height bonus.

I'm not one to house rule, so I'll live with it. :grumble:

All grumbling aside, I'm sure those calling the shots have thought it out more than I have.
 
All in all, losing the ability to flip and the corresponding 360 field of vision (or something close, allowing for shoulders, wings, etc. that block LOS), seems like a fairly big trade off for being able to cross water.
Don't forget that (and this has been argued many times before and has been confirmed by Heroscape authorities) point values of double spacers (Q9's LOS loss :lol: was mentioned specifically) do reflect their handicaps. What that means is that a Q9 with full 360 vision should cost significantly more.

Also, I don't think that we should forego the 360 vision on double spacers, no matter what the faq seems to imply. Everybody plays like that now (right?) (also examplified by Grungebob's original reply a few pages back, that I think didn't explain anything but was otherwise right on the money)
 
Edit: I just read your reply, MMirg. Your argument is that Q9's back blocks his LOS, right? That actually makes a lot of sense. So the "figs own head does not block LOS (but any other bodypart does)" ruling still seems to be applicable?!
That actually seems like the way to play it...

Edit2: Did that pic really add anything/solve anything that was unclear before? It's a nice picture that adequately describes what's happening with Q9, but that was asked (and answered) a ton of times before. I thought we were debating how we can extrapolate from that to how we ought to play other double spacers? Still, it is a nice picture, I guess

Yup, that is what I am saying (guessing, hypothesizing, hoping...). It seems like the Q9 think represents a purposeful FAQ not a general rule. I'd love to hear what the Guru says.

I'm also really interested in Q10--I played him at a tourney here and enjoyed it, but I'm not sure I played him exactly right. I asked my counterparts as I played them if they had any qualms with my reading of him LOS, but I still wonder a bit to myself if I did it right.

(I think the pic was for the other line of questioning going on--a big help to those that were unclear on his field of vision--and the reason I was saying 180 + a bit. That picture clarifies the "bit" part nicely :).)
 
That is my reading as well, though you could likely argue a bit more than 180 vision if a face space sticks out, but seeing behind you doesn't seem to work for Zetacron, etc.

Now for most (like Zeta) this isn't a problem since he is only attacking a single figure per movement/activation--just place him down appropriately. It is figures like Nilfheim and the Majors that really have to worry about this. Q10 gets a lot of attacks, but if they all have to go in front of him, he is also limited in a way that I had not initially thought.

Here is thread on Nilfheim that may clarify things a bit (from his Book): Facing and Line of Sight? http://www.heroscapers.com/community...read.php?t=446

Let's not forget about the Nakitas. If you decide to go after that one gal standing off by herself with a double spaced figure and she happens to roll smoke powder, you're now facing the wrong way...
 
Edit: I just read your reply, MMirg. Your argument is that Q9's back blocks his LOS, right? That actually makes a lot of sense. So the "figs own head does not block LOS (but any other bodypart does)" ruling still seems to be applicable?!
That actually seems like the way to play it...

Edit2: Did that pic really add anything/solve anything that was unclear before? It's a nice picture that adequately describes what's happening with Q9, but that was asked (and answered) a ton of times before. I thought we were debating how we can extrapolate from that to how we ought to play other double spacers? Still, it is a nice picture, I guess

Yup, that is what I am saying (guessing, hypothesizing, hoping...). It seems like the Q9 think represents a purposeful FAQ not a general rule. I'd love to hear what the Guru says.

I'm also really interested in Q10--I played him at a tourney here and enjoyed it, but I'm not sure I played him exactly right. I asked my counterparts as I played them if they had any qualms with my reading of him LOS, but I still wonder a bit to myself if I did it right.

(I think the pic was for the other line of questioning going on--a big help to those that were unclear on his field of vision--and the reason I was saying 180 + a bit. That picture clarifies the "bit" part nicely :).)

I also wonder about Q10. he doesn't have the shoulderpads that Q9 has. The only reason his shoulder would block LOS is because of the stance he happens to be in.

We've been talking about 2-spacers that face perpendicular to the two spaces, but what about MBS, who is sitting on a steed? Can he not target things behind him?
 
These are exactly the questions I have, Phaethon.

The reading of Nilfheim, as I understood it, was that you can pretty much go 360 from where his head is at. It is as if you can imagine the head is able to turn 90 degrees each way and open up a 180 on either side of him (that would work for MBS who similarly has an upright posture). Q10 seems more limited (like Q9) though in his case more by his posture than by his actual construction.

I'd love to hear someone who knows more than I do comment on this.
 
One other point of interest here is that most of the dragons have their target zones done in silhouette, so that it seems they might have a bird-like vision--able to see literally out of each eye in a more panoramic vision.

I know this is all a bit ticky and I don't want to imply the wrong things here, I am just honestly curious with these double hex units, how to determine their sighting given their wings, shoulder pads, unusual green dot locations (Q9 clearly in the front and middle vs. Braxas on the side of her head), lack of rotation after movement phase is over, etc.

I think we've always played that Q10 can block himself from some targets b/c of his odd stance/posture (limiting his 4 shots at 2 a bit), and that dragons can't see directly behind themselves, but have a pretty full vision on the sides and front (most of a panoramic arc). I haven't found anything more specific or detailed on this site or a clear ruling. Any more info or useful comments are welcome.
 
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