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Religious Debate for or against HS

jaamartin

New member
I was reading the posts here, and was making the following reply when it occured to me that it did not fit the original post. Soo... I am cross-linking here to a new topic to keep the other topic.. um.. on topic. ;)
 
Into:

Where to begin... First, great topic, and the following is in no way to be viewed, read, or interpreted as an attack on anyone regardless of how guilty it may make one's conscience... Second, I think it has gone a little off topic a little and will leave it at that.
Now for the meat of my reply...

I personally have a conflict with whether or not to continue playing HS due to my family. Yes... Southern Baptist.... Yes... The game is evil because it has demonic forces at work... read that as it is written.. not images.. not themes.. but AT WORK....

Background:

There are numerous agents out in the world that are vying for your soul. They will do anything, become anyone, and will present themselves in the most attractive and seductive form possible to steal you away from God. They do this in little steps at a time. They make cartoons that start off early giving our youth the mental images that objects/theories of current religious beliefs are not valid*1, and therefore when the child is old enough to make decisions for themselves they will have a more open mind to doing what "feels good" rather than "what is right by God".
Argument:
Look at it this way… The majority of the commercials on after 9:00 PM on the weekdays, and often times before noon on the weekends! Cialus, Viagra, Red-Bull, the Axe commercials, Call now for free adult chat services {adult my baboon butt cheeks! By the look of the women on the phone it is more than “adult”, 18+ years or older… I wonder how many old man heart attacks they have been party too…}. Yes, I am considered an “ultra-conservative” on a lot of things, but this DOES lead to the wrong mental images for someone of faith, especially children.
Question:
With this argument in mind, how can one justify HS as being playable by anyone? I can agree that the eyes are the most vulnerable part of faith, they are for me, but I grew up around D&D, EarthDawn, Stratego, shoot, even Monoploy is evil based upon the argument given above. Is this just a case of, “Wear the armor of God” and make sure there are no broken straps when you play these games?
Advice Seeking:
I know they are just games, so don’t get into a “Freak! It is a game” arguments… I just don’t know how to argue that point to my family, let alone use that as an argument for my 11-year old. Or my 5-year old for that case who wants to do everything that Daddy does and wants to win any game against her older sister!
I understand that every child is different, but when do you stand your ground on something when the argument is approaching fanaticism versus intelligent debating? The argument, at least to me, is valid as it was presented because it is not just a matter of what a figure looks like, but what it is doing to a person. It numbs the mind to what the religious side of things link to the physical appearance of the figure. Therefore, Marro’s or Zombies are evil because in religious visage, they are correlated to evil, and by accepting them as “only a game” then they are allowing other evil things to become acceptable in one’s life as they are breaking down the lines of what is good and evil.
Conclusion:
I am not sure if I have presented the argument, and my overall questions about the argument intelligently, or completely. I have re-read this post several times, changed a few things, and now am so confused I am afraid of making the whole thing complete gibberish that it would be unreadable and give the appearance that I have been mind-flayed*2. I am comfortable in my faith to be able to play these games, but what of my children? Is it a real indicator that I am having conflicts of faith that I find it acceptable?


Footnotes:
*1 The pink cat thing that was in the Hanna-Barbara cartoons. "Exit Stage Right Even" which was ALWAYS stated in a masculine voice but sounds WAY too feminine coming from a man!
*2 This term was coined before World of Warcraft in the Pen-And-Paper RPG of EarthDawn. It was probably used before even that though so.
 
I personally think it's silly to avoid playing with "scary" or "demonic" figures.

They are just that, figures, and will not corrupt anyone that is mentally stable to any degree. They will not cause someone to start worshipping the devil, practice evil, or any standard silliness.
 
Growing up, some of my favorite toys were the original Masters of the Universe (He-Man) toys.

•Big buff He-Man never made me feel like I was inadequate because I didn't look like him.
•Skeletal-faced sorcerer Skeletor never made me want to sell my soul and begin a life of witchcraft.
•Good guys fighting bad guys never made me want to kill my neighbors.
•'Over sexualized' figures like Tela or the Sorceress didn't turn me in to a sexual deviant.

My point? I was raised in a conservative home with strong religious moors. Playing with these toys in no way caused me to deviate from those foundations. I truly believe that anyone who in all honesty is affected by toys or a game in this fashion would have been affected by some other thing if not for that product. In otherwords, I believe that the fault and defect lie in the individual, not the product. This isn't to say that as a parent I do not make judgement about what is or is not permissable to my children, its just that I do not believe that the imagery of this game nor its back story are in anyway damaging. :2cents:
 
I think it is silly it is to say that Heroscape has "demonic forces at work". To say that there are people out there designing games and cartoons as part of one grand scheme to steal your soul is simply maniacal conspiracy theory.

Heroscape is a fantasy game that draws on history, myths, legends, and folklore from around the globe. But Hasbro and WotC do not have a religious agenda - they are simply in the entertainment business. If someone has problems with zombies or vampires or whatever it is being in the game, then they can choose not to play.

Personally, if I had young children and I was concerned about the content of the game, I would ask them how they felt about particular figures. If some part of the game makes them feel uneasy or gives them nightmares, then perhaps it's not for them. However, I doubt thathappens very often.

I think it's best for adults to allow children to learn to think for themselves, rather than micro-managing their every ethical dillema, especially when it comes to such a trivial matter as a 1"-tall plastic figure looking "evil". How else are they going to develop their own conscience?
 
jaamartin,

That way lies madness. Since the world is corrupted, what can exist in it that does not have the potential to entice in some fashion? From the Christian perspective the problem isn't so much the things around us (including Heroscape), but our response to those things. It seems to me that Christians should follow Christ's example of spending time with non-Christians engaging in normal activities. Playing games is one of those normal activities.

~Aldin, who has actually thought a lot about this type of stuff
 
I personally think it's silly to avoid playing with "scary" or "demonic" figures.

They are just that, figures, and will not corrupt anyone that is mentally stable to any degree. They will not cause someone to start worshipping the devil, practice evil, or any standard silliness.

I agree. Playing HS or any other game does not "allow the devil in". You can still be a good christian, or what have you, and play HS.

HS does not stop me from attending church on sunday, nor has it given me any reason to reject the bible or the teachings of God.
HS is a game, its not a way of life.

Where's Rev?
 
Where's Rev?
I'm here. My position has been stated before and hasn't changed.

I do like Aldin's reminder that in some sense all the world is fallen, and it is our relationship to "things" that is at issue and not the things themselves. We live in the tension between a divinely created world of great beauty and power and a fallen world of moral danger; but the tension lies not in the world itself, but within ourselves.

I Timothy 4:4 sums up my attitude toward HeroScape (although God did not directly create HeroScape, God did create the people who did make the game).
 
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I agree, I think that I have turned out to be a strong Christian even though I play these games.

The arguement I posted above is one that I have difficulty answering/debating well.

Any advice on the best way to discuss it is greatly welcomed!
 
Aldin said:
That way lies madness.

:lol: That is what I think!

I'm here. My position has been stated before and hasn't changed.

I do like Aldin's reminder that in some sense all the world is fallen, and it is our relationship to "things" that is at issue and not the things themselves. We live in the tension between a divinely created world of great beauty and power and a fallen world of moral danger; but the tension lies not in the world itself, but within ourselves.

I Timothy 4:4 sums up my attitude toward HeroScape (although God did not directly create HeroScape, God did create the people who did make the game).

Thanks everyone!

Rev, I will research more from 1 Timothy 4:4, and supporting verses to gather a lot of "fuel" for the ensuing debate that I know will occur. I doubt that my family will be receptive of it spouting that I have already become corrupt at the great deceiver's lies, and that I will not have the ability to see through those lies since I have brought them into my life voluntarily.

Jason
 
I don't see anything wrong with it. my brother and I have both pkayed with units like the vampires, orcs, and marro, and it hasn't corrupted us in any way.(Besides making an excessive vampire freak.) My family and I are church going christians, and don't believe that this corrupts in any way.
Look at it this way: J.R.R. Tolkien who wrote Lord of the Rings, and C.S. Lewis who wrote the Chronicles of Narnia, have both been said to have put elements of their faith into their stories, both of them being christian. Witches and evil mytholigical monsters are a reccuring theme in Lewis' writings, and Tolkiens villains are even more mature, including sorcerers and demonic entities. Does this make them agents of evil forces? Don't know about you, but I don't think so.
 
In the book A Landscape with Dragons, the author tells the story of his children suffering from nightmares about monsters, etc. He and his wife were puzzled, because as "good Christians" they had kept thier children away from scarey images. I won't draw out his whole line of thought, but what he discovered and argued in his book, is that we need some of these scarey images and the stories of good versus evil, because they do a lot to teach us about how to psychologically struggle with good and evil. The author recounts how after he introduced his children to fairey stories, etc. the nightmares stopped. The kids learned how to deal with their fears.

Fairy tales, and by extension RPGs and games such as Heroscape can serve the same purpose. They can give a physical and mental outlet to the fears within us. A wise parent can make good use of any situation to teach. Children are not as gullible as we adults think they are, they know the difference between reality and fantasy.

On the other hand, if you do have issues with it stop playing. Better to find a passtime that doesn't disrupt your consciense, (and your relationship with God) than to do something you are uncomfortable. However, if it bothers one person that doesn't make it evil for all. I forget the reference, but St. Paul deals with this in 1 Corinthians regarding eating meat sacrificed to idols.
 
Rev, I will research more from 1 Timothy 4:4, and supporting verses to gather a lot of "fuel" for the ensuing debate that I know will occur. I doubt that my family will be receptive of it spouting that I have already become corrupt at the great deceiver's lies, and that I will not have the ability to see through those lies since I have brought them into my life voluntarily.

Jason
I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are "of the devil."

As a kid, my best friend had to say he was going out to play "trucks" with our small wheeled toys, since if he said "cars" someone might hear it as "cards" which were strictly forbidden.

Sometimes good people can be really goofy.
 
[ I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are "of the devil."
Sometimes good people can be really goofy.
Job 39:9 (KJV only) 9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
 
It seems to me that more often than not these arguments are based on the appearance of a thing and not its nature or effects - which is odd, considering that there are no inspired illustrations.
 
We are Christians and have Christian friends that would be shocked to see some of the figures in Heroscape. Our solution is to just not expose them to it. We don't talk about it or glorify it in front of these friends.

Romans 14 helps a lot here:

v 1-2 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.

v 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
The "weaker brother" in this case is the person who thinks a plastic miniature will corrupt their child. This is a "doubtful thing" (ie, no clear doctrine) Don't debate with fellow Christians whether Heroscape is appropriate or not...just be convinced in your own mind whether it is acceptable for your family.

v 14-15 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
In other words, my personal liberty of feeling that my kids can play Heroscape shouldn't come before my relationship with my friends. I choose to suspend my liberty in order to not "stumble them" by exposing them to it.
 
In the book A Landscape with Dragons, the author tells the story of his children suffering from nightmares about monsters, etc. He and his wife were puzzled, because as "good Christians" they had kept thier children away from scarey images. I won't draw out his whole line of thought, but what he discovered and argued in his book, is that we need some of these scarey images and the stories of good versus evil, because they do a lot to teach us about how to psychologically struggle with good and evil. The author recounts how after he introduced his children to fairey stories, etc. the nightmares stopped. The kids learned how to deal with their fears.

Fairy tales, and by extension RPGs and games such as Heroscape can serve the same purpose. They can give a physical and mental outlet to the fears within us. A wise parent can make good use of any situation to teach. Children are not as gullible as we adults think they are, they know the difference between reality and fantasy.

On the other hand, if you do have issues with it stop playing. Better to find a passtime that doesn't disrupt your consciense, (and your relationship with God) than to do something you are uncomfortable. However, if it bothers one person that doesn't make it evil for all. I forget the reference, but St. Paul deals with this in 1 Corinthians regarding eating meat sacrificed to idols.

I think this is a great explanation. Keeping one sheltered from the world only makes them ignorant to the goings on. People are going to be who they were meant to good or bad. Providing the role model for them to follow will put them on the path. When they come of age the choice to follow that path will be theirs.

My plan is to hide nothing from my children but to line out right and wrong. I feel that if they know of everything then when something morally grey or wrong crops up they will be able to say that their parents told them of this and will hopefully make the right decision.
 
We are Christians and have Christian friends that would be shocked to see some of the figures in Heroscape. Our solution is to just not expose them to it. We don't talk about it or glorify it in front of these friends.

Romans 14 helps a lot here:

v 1-2 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.

v 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
The "weaker brother" in this case is the person who thinks a plastic miniature will corrupt their child. This is a "doubtful thing" (ie, no clear doctrine) Don't debate with fellow Christians whether Heroscape is appropriate or not...just be convinced in your own mind whether it is acceptable for your family.

v 14-15 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
In other words, my personal liberty of feeling that my kids can play Heroscape shouldn't come before my relationship with my friends. I choose to suspend my liberty in order to not "stumble them" by exposing them to it.

You actually hide the fact that you play heroscape from them? This just boggles the mind, because if they cannot accept the fact that you play the game, they must not be very good friends. Now, if you were trying to push it on them or their kids, that'd be one thing, but are people really so terrified and scared of a simple board game they would react that badly?

I think some people need to get a clearer grip on reality because this isn't sweating the small stuff, it's freaking out over the small stuff and there isn't a thing in the bible against playing a game like that. It's not the image of something that is frightning, but the person's reaction to it that can be.
 
Romans 14 helps a lot here:

Agreed, especially since Paul was writing about eating food that was actually, you know, sacrificed at idols of pagan gods. Whatever concepts heroscape may or may not borrow from pagan thought, it's far from being an actual act of worship towards a pagan deity.


One would hope that in playing heroscape (or any game) with children, one could help inculcate good fruit such as peace, patience, self-control, and even love through good sportsmanship, camraderie, and shared enjoyment. If on the other hand, your heroscape session ends with tears, accusations, yelling, sulking, cheating or other such behavior, then perhaps at that point it's time to abandon the game.
 
Well, I've always argued this way:


It's fiction. You are not actually killing people. You are not actually leading armies.

Same with reading books; if you read fiction, why would this be any different?

You just have to make sure that it doesn't take over your life. If you start to believe it's real, and try to get Utgar to summon you to Valhalla, then you have a problem.

If you play a board game, you don't.
 
Well, this is a very interesting topic and a hot button for a lot of people.

I think in today's world there is ALOT of immoral and very suggestive things that bombard people every day with demoralizing/evil things. Just watch TV, commercials and mainstream sitcoms are pretty darn bad these days. I remember when the show Simpson first came on the air and there was an uproar about how bad it was. Now some 15+ years later Family Guy comes out (just using as one example) and it is WAY worse than simpsons ever was. Yet, I know many Christians who watch all the time (I dont because I have younger children and simply cannot let them watch that show).

Anyway, I think what I am trying to say is that in way there is a sliding scale of what is and what is not acceptable to the individual. Forgive me that my memory on scripture isnt as good as it was, but the Apostle Paul talks in his letters about how some things are acceptable, but may not be beneficial. Or how if the conscious of one individual allows him to do something, but another does not that can be okay also. (This is taken in context of perphery issues like eating meat on certain days, not on core issues like murder etc).

So then in my opinion Heroscape is a perphery issue. Some may find it too extreme, others may not. For myself I am ok with where it is right now. IF in heroscape had say satanic pentgrams all over it, or something that extreme then it would be too extreme for me.
 
I am Catholic...there are many things that my group has done over the centuries that I would consider unsavory, all in all we are good people though. Anyways onto my story...a few years ago the Southern Baptists were in arms over Harry Potter, my wife's realtions being some of them. Harry was going to turn all of our children into young magicians and then convert them into Satanists...parents beware. This irratated me to no end but I was not sure how to defend my position wtih some of my strong Catholic friends. And then it happened....

My Pope walked out and spoke, he told the world that Harry Potter is about magic but it is also about good vs. evil and we as a civilization must never forget that both good and evil exist. Furthermore he claimed that Harry embodied that goodness and that it was Holy to grow up wanting to fight back the darkness. I was very proud of my religous leader that day. He saw beyond the details of the story and to the true center of the whole debate...good exists, evil exists...learning about this is not a sin and ultimately it teaches us how to be better people.

So I say the same for Scape, there are very clear lines of good and evil with which to defend your position. Teach your kids to love the good figs, but also play the bad figs. There is a lesson learned when the bad guys win too...sometimes bad things happen to good people...unfortunate but that is the way it is.

I have played all sorts of fantasy games throughout my life since I can remember..and I will impart a secret to you about how it has affected me that I have never told anyone. When I die the one thing I would ask the Lord is how do I serve on the battlelines between Heaven and Hell. To me this would be the ultimate reward, to serve in the Lord's army as the great ArchAngels have done. I know it is an odd thing honestly but I have carried the rifle for mankind...how glorious would it be to carry spear and shield for the Father. I know its kinda cooky....but it is a daydream I have had for a long time... and it is a powerful emotion for me to think I could stand against true evil in the name of the Lord.
 
You actually hide the fact that you play heroscape from them? This just boggles the mind, because if they cannot accept the fact that you play the game, they must not be very good friends.

I am not "hiding" it from them. I just don't make a big deal about it. I tell my kids that they are sensitive to it so not to bring it up. There's plenty of other games we can play with them.

If they ask however, I will let them know what it is and answer any questions they have about it...
 
[ I remember, about thirty years ago, when my mother-in-law was shocked that we allowed our daughters to have pictures of pink and blue unicorns in their rooms, since unicorns, too, are "of the devil."
Sometimes good people can be really goofy.
Job 39:9 (KJV only) 9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
Sadly, the KJV translators were not up on the Hebrew word for wild ox or perhaps rhinoceros. <sigh>
 
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